Bosnian Muslims fighting for the Axis?

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Deterance
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#16

Post by Deterance » 20 May 2003, 07:01

Hitlers's acceptance of Bosnian Muslims as "aryans" was pure politics linked to the need for manpower.

Bosnian Muslims are simply southern Slavs who converted to varying degrees to Islam during Turkish occupation.

Their inclusion in NAZI fantasy of a "master race" only high lights other inconsistancies. NAZIS linked Croats to "Master Race", But Croats, Serbs and Bosnians are ethnicaly identical. Ukrainians ranked higher on NAZI plan than Poles and Russians. Ukrainians, Poles and Russians are all Slavs. Finns were admired, but are not Scandanavians.

NAZIS just redefined their notion of ethnicity to support political needs

Aryan migration occurred over 10,000 years ago and displaced almost all indigenous peoples. ALL PEOPLE IN EUROPE EXCEPT BASQUES AND PERHAPS NORTHERN FINNO-UGARICS are technically descended from "Aryans". Basques and perhapsFinno Ugarics represent last vestige of truly indigenous peoples.

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Johnny
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#17

Post by Johnny » 21 May 2003, 19:28

Interesting, you seem to have found proof that the Indo Europeans actually excisted. Might I ask where you read this?


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Deterance
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#18

Post by Deterance » 22 May 2003, 06:02

Johnny wrote:Interesting, you seem to have found proof that the Indo Europeans actually excisted. Might I ask where you read this?
Johnny, Archaelogical evidence is very, very scarce but.....

Proof that "Aryans" existed is extrapolated from linguistical studies showing common language root between 10-15 thousand years ago.

For example, even vastly different languages such as English, Welsh, Greek, French and Farsi (Iran), Northern Indian languages are all related to each other. All languages in Europe with the exception of Basque show common roots. Studies concentrated on verb structure, grammar and certain nouns like "mother", "water" etc.

Basque and is a Fossil language existing in Europe before arrival of new language mega tree brought by Indo Europeans. It has no relatives on the European family tree. Thus speculation that Basques existed in area before Indos and kept their non Indo. language.

One source I read stated that Sa'ami and Karelian Finno Ugarics are truly indigenous to their areas even though their language may not be. I dont know if they meant "before Indo Europeans" like Basques or "just been there since before recorded history"

As for sources, for lingusitics try UNESCO red book on endangered languages or type various terms Linguistical comparisons Indo Europeans migration etc. etc. in Google. I will try to get more specific sources if you want.

As far as other Indigenous, Bushmen "Click" languages are Fossils as well. Show Bushmen existed in Khakhari desert before arrival of Bantu etc. speaking African (Black) groups. Ainu in Japan... fossils as well. They are Caucasians yet existed in Japan before arrival of Asians.

I think Linguistics is very interesting!!!!

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Johnny
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#19

Post by Johnny » 01 Jun 2003, 17:47

yes well this I allready knew. I still think it's an interesting question if the Indo Europeans really existed or if the languages just spread through communication like agroculture did.

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Deterance
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#20

Post by Deterance » 01 Jun 2003, 19:58

Johnny,

I will go for the existence of the Indo Europenas. If the proto "indo" languages were passed like agricultural technology.....

1. What would cause almost all European groups to abandon their pre "Indo" languages? Seems to point towards early population being displaced , acculturated by an arriving people.

Look at American Indians....they shared agricultural ideas, yet retained their languages from vastly different "Trees""

2. How come Indo European root languages did not spread north to Centeral Asia and East to Asia? Indicates Indo European people migrated only to the west....to Europe

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Johnny
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#21

Post by Johnny » 02 Jun 2003, 22:54

I'd have to agree with you on that one Deterance, I think the indo-european question is probably one of the most interesting unresolved historical mysteries... to bad it's been largly overlooked beacuse of some of it's past. I'm having a hard time figuring out what the other instrument for spreading a language tree of that multitude besides sharing some historical component or people could be.. maybe the language traveled along with something else.. like some sort of political revolution of prehistoric times or whatever :D Seems like the english language is used by so many across the globe beacuse of their colonialism... seems like everything I've read on the subject avoids from touching the core if it all.. if there was an indo european people or not...

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Deterance
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#22

Post by Deterance » 03 Jun 2003, 07:34

Johnny,

It is unfortunate the subject is ignored. I agree, it's NAZI linked past coupled with no archaelogical evidence makes it difficult to study.

I feel that there is just no other explanation except for their existance. Even in colonial system, English and French are used, but have not wiped out native languages in Africa and Asia.

DNA testing has been used on Jewish descended populations in China and Zimbabwe. Very interesting results in Zimbabwe. But, the NAZI past of "Aryan" concept would make such a study difficult to say the least.

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Johnny
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#23

Post by Johnny » 03 Jun 2003, 15:48

[quote="Deterance"] Even in colonial system, English and French are used, but have not wiped out native languages in Africa and Asia.

That's quite interesting. maybe we should start another thread on this subject cus I feel we've gone abit off topic here... I'll start a new one and message you the topics name

/J

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#24

Post by Field Marshall Manstein » 09 Jun 2003, 01:37

The info on the Muslim recruits can be found in the book, "Waffen SS Hitlers black guard at war". A waffen SS division was recruited from Bosnian Muslims, their purpose was to fight against the christian serbian partisans which they hated. But the Muslims were of extremely poor quality and have the dubious position of being the only Waffen SS formation ever to mutiny!

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#25

Post by Johnny » 10 Jun 2003, 14:24

Yeah I know about it, thanx

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#26

Post by cybercat » 13 Sep 2003, 17:06

Field Marshall Manstein wrote:The info on the Muslim recruits can be found in the book, "Waffen SS Hitlers black guard at war". A waffen SS division was recruited from Bosnian Muslims, their purpose was to fight against the christian serbian partisans which they hated. But the Muslims were of extremely poor quality and have the dubious position of being the only Waffen SS formation ever to mutiny!
The partisans were not only "Serbian Christian" they were also Bosnian Muslim, Croat Catholic, Albanian, Gypsy - indeed all the nations of former-Yugoslavia were represented in Tito's Partisans and the liberation movement. The "Serb Christian" label of the partisans is a myth.

If you're interested in the music that Handzar (Handschar) soldiers probably listened to and made then listen to this:

http://www.cybercat.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Doslavoda.mp3

The usual right-click and "save target as"

This song is a traditional Bosnian Muslim (sevdahlinke) song at least a couple of centuries old.

It was also popular amongst the Bosnian Muslim fighters in 1992-1995 therefore I expect that it would have also been sung by the SS Handzar and Bosnian Muslims in Tito's Partisans during WWII as well.

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#27

Post by cybercat » 13 Sep 2003, 17:11

BTW It's a religious song about a dying woman.

In sevdahlinke or sevdah, the male songs are traditionally sung by women and the female songs by males - why?? I haven't got the foggiest...

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#28

Post by Krilnik » 17 Sep 2003, 13:00

", But Croats, Serbs and Bosnians are ethnicaly identical.

:roll: I really don't know what to say on this, but you who wrote it don't have to be very smart to know that there can not be indetical nations who were under Turks for 400 year with the ones who weren't at all.And by this I am thinking on serbs and bosnians on one and Croatians on the other side.

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Allen Milcic
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Waffen SS "Handschar" Division

#29

Post by Allen Milcic » 01 Oct 2003, 21:28

The book "Hitler's Black Guard at War" is a seriously flawed book, and a poor source for information on the "Handschar" Division. May I recommend the only serious book on the topic; one that is written by both an uninvolved 3rd party (George Lepre), and one that was meticulously researched - "HIMMLER'S BOSNIAN DIVISION: THE WAFFEN-SS HANDSCHAR DIVISION 1943-1945." This book dispels many of the myths surrounding this division, and provides a complete, detailed history of its founding, training, the mutiny, its combat record, and its eventual demise. The book shows, and supports its findings by way of primary source evidence, that:

1. the mutiny in France was instigated by 4 agents of the Communist Party of Yugoslavia, and was a minor incident;
2. that the division fought well when used what it had originally been raised for - fighting the Communist Partisans in the mountains of Bosnia;
3. that labels of "prone to war-crimes" are a serious exaggeration of the facts.

The "Handschar" Division was numbered as 13. on the Waffen SS divisional organization list, and seeing as Bosnia was part of the Independent State of Croatia during WW2, it was identified as "kroatische Nr. 1". Some 10% of the division's manpower were Catholic Croats, while the remainder were Bosnian Muslims (with Croatian citizenship) + a German NCO and officer cadre.

Please let me also add that the Yugoslav Partisans were not solely "Christian Serbian", but had units from all of the nationalities and religions of the Yugoslav state, including Catholic Slovenians, Catholic Croats, Bosnian Muslims, Eastern-Orthodox Montenegrins, Serbs and Macedonians etc. The leader of the Yugoslav Communists and commander of the Partisans was a Croat, Marshall Josip Broz "Tito", and his immediate subordinates were the Slovenian Kardelj, Jewish-Croatian Bakaric, Serbs Rankovic, Djilas and Milutinovic, and Croat Ribar amongst others. It is interesting to note that almost 1/2 of the Partisan divisions raised during WW2 were from the territory of Croatia proper (that is, the lands of today's Republic of Croatia that does not include Bosnia-Herzegovina). I can provide a full list of the Croatian Partisan divisions and brigades if anyone is interested.

Please also note that a 2nd Waffen SS division, the "Kama", was also raised using Bosnian Muslims (with a sprinkling of Catholic Croats), but this was late in the war, and the unit was disbanded before ever seeing combat due to the arrival of the Red Army on the "Yugoslav" borders.

Kind regards to all.

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#30

Post by tyskaorden » 02 Oct 2003, 08:55

There also was the 21. Waffen Gebirgs Division der SS "Skanderbeg" (albanische nr 1) composed mainly of muslim Albanians. This unit was raised in Kossovo in the summer of 1944. However by october 1944 desertions and other losses had reduced the division to about 1 300 men and it was disbanded. The German cadres formed Kampfgruppe Skanderbeg attched to SS-Freiwilligen Gebirgsjäger Regiment 14 of the 7. SS-Freiwilligen Gebirgs Division "Prinz Eugen".

//Tyskaorden alias Marcus Karlsson

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