Bosnian Muslims fighting for the Axis?

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Division
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#76

Post by Division » 18 Jul 2007, 15:28

penkalaa wrote:I know very well the difference between Handschar and Ustasa, and your problem is that you totally ignore the facts that many Katholic Croatians also served in Handschar Division and the facts that allmost every source from that time named the Division as Croatian Division.
Its not secret that most Bosniacs support Croatian government and NDH, and i explain to you before that Bosniacs was banned to call themselves Bosniacs after AustroHungary was in Bosnia, and bosnian language too(1907y.). In that period mostly Bosniacs must call themselves ''Croatian'', because law banned them to call themselves Bosniacs. And only for that Handzar get second name in Germany(kroatische 1), but this is autonomy Bosnian Division under Germans army.

About phantom Bosnian muslims like u say, look this:
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/6594/1040on4.jpg
Look year, and look how they call us

Bosniacs-elitetrupe

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#77

Post by George Lepre » 18 Jul 2007, 20:01

penkalaa wrote:sorry I can not find any data about Hafiz Muhammad and his activities.It is strange that he is not mentioned in any Bosnian source
Where are you looking? First you criticized me for "using Bosnian sources and historians," and now you are using them. Pandza and the autonomy movement are examined in every single book ever published about the Handschar Division. Here let me help you -

Zija Sulejmanpasic, 13. SS divizija Handzar. This book mentions Pandza on nine different pages. Page 407 even lists his biography.

Enver Redzic, Muslimansko Autonomastvo i 13. SS Divizija. How do you like this book's title? The autonomy movement, which you claim played no role, is covered in several chapters of this volume. The book even reproduces the first page of the memorandum the autonomists, led by Pandza, sent to Hitler on 1 November 1942 (see photo page IV).
penkalaa wrote:Fact is that this Division was Croatian Division, Bosnia was part of Croatia and fact is too
Sorry, that's just your opinion, not a fact.
penkalaa wrote:then you have some problem with yourself.
One more personal attack and you're banned.
penkalaa wrote:phantom Bosnian Muslim autonomy movement have no acces to that Divison.
Didn't you read the document excerpts I posted above? Didn't you read where it said that Pandza played a major role in the recruiting effort? Did the Germans lie in these reports? The role played by the autonomists in the recruiting drive is so well documented that every serious historian acknowledges their role.

And please start citing PRIMARY SOURCES in your arguments. Everything you've said so far is simply your own unsubstatiated opinion, nothing else.


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penkalaa
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#78

Post by penkalaa » 19 Jul 2007, 13:42

[quote="George Lepre
penkalaa wrote:Fact is that this Division was Croatian Division, Bosnia was part of Croatia and fact is too
Sorry, that's just your opinion, not a fact.
[/quote]
And your claim that the Handschar is one Bosnian Division is a fact?
That Division was under German command, filled with 10 % Katholic Croatians, 10 % Germans, 10-20 % Sandjak and Albanian Muslims, and the rest of Croatian citizens Muslim faith.( Bosniaks as nation did not exist at this time)
And your only conclusion is that this Division must be a Bosnian.
Last edited by penkalaa on 19 Jul 2007, 14:35, edited 1 time in total.

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penkalaa
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#79

Post by penkalaa » 19 Jul 2007, 14:08

George Lepre wrote:
Didn't you read the document excerpts I posted above? Didn't you read where it said that Pandza played a major role in the recruiting effort? Did the Germans lie in these reports? The role played by the autonomists in the recruiting drive is so well documented that every serious historian acknowledges their role.
Ok you are probably right, but i am curious
how he menage to covince Bosnian Muslims to join Handschar?
I speculate " Dear Bosniaks, join the Handschar and your will be under great German command and you can carry croatian insignia from our Croatian brothers,fight for the Germany that will help Bosnia " :lol:
My opinion is that the money was a major role in recruiting effort,and not some individuals without or low political power.
Strange that they survived in Ustasa regime

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penkalaa
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#80

Post by penkalaa » 19 Jul 2007, 15:13

Division wrote: Its not secret that most Bosniacs support Croatian government and NDH, and i explain to you before that Bosniacs was banned to call themselves Bosniacs after AustroHungary was in Bosnia, and bosnian language too(1907y.). In that period mostly Bosniacs must call themselves ''Croatian'', because law banned them to call themselves Bosniacs. And only for that Handzar get second name in Germany(kroatische 1), but this is autonomy Bosnian Division under Germans army.

About phantom Bosnian muslims like u say, look this:
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/6594/1040on4.jpg
Look year, and look how they call us

Bosniacs-elitetrupe
Yes the name is for citizen of k.u.k. provinz Bosnia, and not just for Bosnian Muslim inhabitants.Where ever Bosnian name in history is mentioned every time your connected it too Bosnian Muslims,and about half citizens of Bosnia are not Bosnian Musims.You simply forget the others.I read something about this Bosniacs-elitetrupe, they all carrying fez, but just 1/3 members of that unit were Bosnian Muslims.

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#81

Post by George Lepre » 20 Jul 2007, 06:02

penkalaa wrote:And your claim that the Handschar is one Bosnian Division is a fact?
That Division was under German command, filled with 10 % Katholic Croatians, 10 % Germans, 10-20 % Sandjak and Albanian Muslims, and the rest of Croatian citizens Muslim faith.( Bosniaks as nation did not exist at this time) And your only conclusion is that this Division must be a Bosnian.
The title "Bosnian Division" is conceptual. There were "Croatian Divisions" in German service, notably the 369th Regiment (and later Division), the 373. Division, etc. These formations were smoothly formed by the German army with close Croatian assistance and without any political overtones. The Handschar Division was a different story. Handschar was Heinrich Himmler's idea from the beginning and he sought to form the division the way he wanted to. That meant fezzes, Muslims, imams, the Mufti, autonomists, and a romanticized image of the old k.u.k. Bosnian regiments, even though these were not all-Muslim. In order to get his way, he ignored the pleas of the German Foreign Office to stop meddling in internal Croatian politics through his support for the Bosnian autonomists. He continued trying to do it "his way" and in doing so alienated Pavelic, Vrancic, Lorkovic, etc. The "bad blood" between the Croatian government and the Handschar Division lasted until the end of the war. One German officer recalled the time when a Handschar element passing through Dugo Selo happened to meet the Poglavnik in late 1944. At the time, the Handschar Division was suffering from large-scale desertion. When Pavelic saw them, he said, sarcastically, "The Handschar Division? It still exists?" (Source: Letter to me from Hugo Schmidt, Handschar officer, dated 29 March 1993.)
penkalaa wrote:how he menage to covince Bosnian Muslims to join Handschar?
After the massacres of Muslims at Foca and other places, the Muslims of eastern Bosnia sought the support of a strong political-military patron. The autonomists hoped the Germans would protect them, and that's why they wrote to Hitler in November 1942 asking for annexation. SS-Brigadeführer Karl-Gustav Sauberzweig, the Handschar Division commander, wrote: "The Muslims are the weakest element (in the region). They shall always seek the assistance of those they believe to be the strongest." (Source: IX. Waffen-(Gebirgs-) A.K. der SS, Ic 31/44/g. Kdos. v. 15.6.1944, "Lagebericht Nr. 1." This document can be found in the Politischen Archiv des Auswärtigen Amtes, Signatur R, 101059, Aktenband Inland IIg 404, "Berichten und Meldungen in und über Jugoslawien: 404524). There is also the fact that the Germans arranged for the Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin el-Husseini, to visit Sarajevo in April 1943. Unsurprisingly, the SS arranged for him to meet with the autonomists, and this greatly angered Croatian officials, particularly Dr. Pavao Canki.

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penkalaa
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#82

Post by penkalaa » 20 Jul 2007, 14:02

The 13th Waffen SS Mountain Division "Handschar" (Croatian Nr.1)

When the Independant State of Croatia proclaimed its independance on April 10th 1941, during the German invasion of Yugoslavia, part of the land it claimed was the former Austro-Hungarian province of Bosnia-Herzegovina (Bosna i Hercegovina). The province was an ethnic and religious mix, with a portion of the population being Catholic Croatian, a portion being Orthodox Serbian, and a portion being Croatians of the Muslim faith. It was these Muslim inhabitants of Bosnia that Himmler and the SS would target in their recruitment of a Croatian SS Division (although a portion of the future division's men would be Catholic Croatian as well).

The reasons for the recruitment in particular of Croatian Muslims by the SS were many-fold. For one, Himmler was fascinated by the Islamic faith, and thought Muslims to be fearless soldiers. Himmler also subscribed to the propaganda theory that Croatians (and therefore the Croatian Muslims) were not, in fact, Slavic people, but actually of Aryan (Gothic) descent, and thereby acceptable to the racially "pure" SS. The fact that this ludicrous theory would not hold up to any kind of serious scrutiny was conveniently ignored. Finally, the Germans were hoping to rally the World's 350 million Muslims to their side, in a struggle against the British Empire. The creation of a Muslim, albeit European Muslim Division, was considered a stepping stone to this greater end.

Adolf Hitler approved of Himmler's idea on February 13th 1943. Prior to the formation of the division, however, approval also had to be granted by the Croatian government, as their citizens were to be recruited, and on Croatian territory. The Croatian Poglavnik, Ante Pavelic, and his ministers had many problems with the idea, but eventually agreed to the division's creation on March 5th 1943. The divisional strength reached the required 26,000 men by mid 1943, though not all men were volunteers (some being begged, bribed and outright kidnapped into service). Also, 2,800 of the men were Catholic Croatians and not Muslim.

Very good article from your co moderator Allen Milcic
The only reasons for creation of that Division are phantasys of Himmler and not
as reason of working of the Bosnian Muslim autonomy movement.

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#83

Post by George Lepre » 21 Jul 2007, 06:23

penkalaa wrote:The only reasons for creation of that Division are phantasys of Himmler and not
as reason of working of the Bosnian Muslim autonomy movement.
In late 1942, when Himmler proposed the idea of the Division, Stalingrad was a crisis and the Allies had landed in North Africa. Berger and Himmler were looking everywhere for new sources of manpower - in the Balkans, Ukraine, and every possible variety of "Volksdeutsche" they could find.

The Himmler-autonomist relationship was a mutually beneficial alliance. Himmler donated money and clothing to Muslim organizations and arranged for the Mufti's April 1943 visit, which gained greater attention to the plight of Muslims in eastern Bosnia. In return, Pandza and the autonomists assisted the Handschar (and later Kama) recruiting efforts. The Croatian government and German Foreign Office complained, but Himmler would not be moved until it became obvious that there were simply not enough Muslims to fill the ranks.

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Junak1929
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#84

Post by Junak1929 » 23 Jul 2007, 05:32

Was my post removed ?

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''X''
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#85

Post by ''X'' » 28 Jul 2007, 00:17

I suppose that only the muslims of the division wore the Fez,right ; Τhe catholics wore that Gebirgsjager style cap

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#86

Post by George Lepre » 28 Jul 2007, 02:00

Hi "X" -

During the division's early formation period, the only fezzes that were worn were locally-procured examples. It was not until late 1943-early 1944 when the division was at Neuhammer that the SS-produced fezzes appeared. These were worn by all ranks, irrespective of the individual's own religion. Once the division returned to the Balkans in early 1944, most of its soldiers wore steel helmets in combat and just about whatever they pleased during lulls in the fighting, especially during the cold winter of 1944-1945. The only post-March 1944 photos of the division that I have seen in which fezzes are universally worn are those taken during special oocasions, such as awards ceremonies and funeral rites.

Hope this helps!

Best regards,

George

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''X''
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#87

Post by ''X'' » 28 Jul 2007, 07:34

Thank you,that makes it a lot clearer!

In one photo i have seen a Prinz Eugen comander wearing the Fez in a visit to Handzar division,any more information about that ;

Thanks,
Giorgos

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#88

Post by George Lepre » 28 Jul 2007, 08:45

Hi Giorgos -

That certainly sounds like an interesting photo. If you could post it here, I could take a look at it and see who's doing what.

Best,

George

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Ivan Ž.
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#89

Post by Ivan Ž. » 30 Jul 2007, 06:22

George Lepre wrote:That certainly sounds like an interesting photo. If you could post it here, I could take a look at it and see who's doing what.
Hello, George,
see my 4th post here
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &start=345
Giorgos, is that the photo you were refering to?

Cheers,
Ivan

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''X''
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#90

Post by ''X'' » 30 Jul 2007, 22:21

Ivanwss wrote: Hello, George,
see my 4th post here
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &start=345
Giorgos, is that the photo you were refering to?

Cheers,
Ivan
Yes,that's the photo i was talking about.Thanks!

Giorgos

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