Looking for info about FPN 12607 & 48547 (Latvia - 10.1944)

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vanGelderen
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Looking for info about FPN 12607 & 48547 (Latvia - 10.1944)

#1

Post by vanGelderen » 11 Nov 2015, 22:06

Hi,

I am trying to find some information about the last days of my lost uncle. He joined Dutch SS Freiwilliger as a Pz Gren. in 1943 and went from FPN 48524 (B) Sennheim to FPN 35194 (Nordland) His last letter was sent from last mentioned FPN at 26-09-1944 / Konju Walfara. After the war my grandfather did some research and received info from the German Red Cross (München) My uncle Willem Janus van Gelderen got reported missing on 16-10-1944 in the surroundings of Zarini (Latvia) they reported. I found his picture eventually at the DRK Suchdienst band GG, seite 71 related to FPN 12607 / 48547. (Pferde Park 581 (mit Zweigpark) - Armee )


Best regards,

Corneel

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Re: Looking for info about FPN 12607 & 48547 (Latvia - 10.1944)

#2

Post by history1 » 12 Nov 2015, 10:14

48524:
(2.1.1940-11.3.1943) SS-Ausbildungs-Lager Sennheim,
(8.9.1943-22.4.1944) 8.3.1944 Regimentsstab SS-Ausbildungslager Sennheim.

35194
(Mobilmachung-1.1.1940) Feldgendarmerie-Gruppe Eberhardt, dann Feldgendarmerie-Trupp 160
(12.3.1943-7.9.1943) gestrichen (Stalingrad)
(23.4.1944-24.11.1944) 9.8.1944 Bewahrungs-Kompanie 11 (11. SS-Division).

12607: (Mobilmachung-1.1.1940) Armee-Pferde-Park 581

48587:
(2.1.1940-11.3.1943) Stab u. 1.-5. Kompanie Marsch-Bataillon z.b.V. Eisenach,
(12.3.1943-7.9.1943) gestrichen,
(23.4.1944-24.11.1944) 2.10.1944 Veterinar-Kompanie 134.

Seems that your relative was part of the Veterinary Company 134 when he was MIA.

Cheers,
Roman


vanGelderen
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Re: Looking for info about FPN 12607 & 48547 (Latvia - 10.1944)

#3

Post by vanGelderen » 12 Nov 2015, 18:18

Hi Roman, Thanks for your answer. So I should rely on the info DRK provides in this case..

I am going to do some research on that Veterinar-Kompanie 134 related to early oktober 1944. Any how-to's or ideas where to start (except google which is the only tool I know..) are very welcome.

Best regards,
Corneel

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Re: Looking for info about FPN 12607 & 48547 (Latvia - 10.1944)

#4

Post by history1 » 12 Nov 2015, 19:33

Hello Cornell,

did you try WASt already? But normaly the DRK is using informations they get from the WAST.
Another chance might be the NARA -rolls wich John thanksfully uploads to his server and that we can use them for free. Take a look at his thread ( http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3#p1977993) and seek informations about the 134th Infantry Division. Maybe you´re lucky and can find a division roll or you might look for a superordinate unit of the 134 ID. which is the 9th Army. Or you might look for rolls of the "Heeresgruppe Mitte" at the time.

What I found out in the www is that the 134. ID got totaly destroid at the end of June 1944 during the Soviet Operation Bagration or to be more specific in the Bobruysk Offensive were the unit was encircled (omsingeld gebied) :
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bagration
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobruysk_Offensive

There are a few villages with the name "Zariņi" but more important is the question with which unit did your uncle came there?

regards,
Roman

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Re: Looking for info about FPN 12607 & 48547 (Latvia - 10.1944)

#5

Post by vanGelderen » 12 Nov 2015, 21:46

Hi,

I did not try WASt yet. I am willing to follow that but still uncertain about going right direction when searching for 12607/48547. In august 44 he was writing from Konju and At 26th september '44 he wrote his last letter linked to FPN 35194 // 11. SS Division - Bewährungskompanie.
A Dutch SS soldier told later (after the war) he saw him alive at the 14th oktober '44 after a big Russian attack after which this soldier and other SS-ers fled. After that nothing was heard from him anymore.

regs, Corneel


ps Zarini area .. north of Riga as the DRK mentioned in their letter

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Re: Looking for info about FPN 12607 & 48547 (Latvia - 10.1944)

#6

Post by history1 » 13 Nov 2015, 15:06

Corneel,

I´m quite confused now with all the FPN and the time when your uncle belonged to the units. Especially because the following differences:
You mentioned that he wrote his last letter from the probation company (= Bewährungskompanie) of the 11.SS - Division (FPN 35194).
But the files in the VBL of the DRK are showing him as part of the Veterinary Company of the 134th Infantry Division (FPN 48587) what is a Wehrmacht unit and not SS.
I wonder if he wasn´t transfered from the 11. SS Division to the 4. SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Brigade „Nederland“ like all other dutchmen?
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/23._SS-Fr ... iederlande
The latter withdrew through the Balticum exactly at the time when he was MIA.
So many questions.....

Regards

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Re: Looking for info about FPN 12607 & 48547 (Latvia - 10.1944)

#7

Post by vanGelderen » 13 Nov 2015, 15:47

Hi, tnx for your reply.

I am confused as well to be honest but the FPN's from that Vet Company are above his picture in DRK Vermissten Bildliste?!

Let's start with the facts.
FPN 48524 (B) is written on one of his first letters in june '43, sent from Sennheim where he was trained as a SS Pz. Gren.
Another letter he writes on 14.08.44 from Konju without any FPN marked (Konju Walfara .. I dont know where that is.. 70 km west of Narva?)
Then there is this other letter without a date, written on the same kind of paper with similar pen (so it could be in the same timeframe? on this one he also wrote the Sennheim FPN 48524 B ?! maybe he took some from trainingfacility) Another thing which makes it complicated is that this letters are all about nothing, got probably checked well on details.

The official inquiry document from the Dutch Red Cross in which he is reported MIA says his last known FPN is 35194 11.SS - Bewährungskompanie
Last contact is 26.09.1944 Konju Walfara

We also have this story from a dutch SS soldier who saw him alive at 14.10.1944. (after a big russian attack)

According to the Red Cross he is reported missing at 16.10.1944 in surroundings of Zarini (north of Riga they said.. I still have not found it on any map) ..2nd question .. where did the Red Cross got this info?

Was he still in the BewährungsKomp? His pic on the Bildliste placed wrong on page by this Vet Komp? Because we have no letters written from the 12607 / 48547

Lost track..


regs,

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Re: Looking for info about FPN 12607 & 48547 (Latvia - 10.1944)

#8

Post by history1 » 13 Nov 2015, 19:35

Hi,

here´s a map with Konju and all villages with the name Zarini I found. But which one is the right one?
https://tinyurl.com/q73v2c8
How can the Red Cross say it´s the one north of Riga?
As mentioned already the RC is using datas of the WASt.
Why is only your uncles photo placed there without his rank? Why did they not mention the place from his last letters when the knew the correct date (10.44)? Did the people who asked for help/seek him hide it because of shame that he was a colaborateur?
Which ranks does he mention on the letters?
And how did you came along this photo as there ´s no name search on their website?
http://193.159.223.62:8081/vbl/Feldpostnummer/FPN.aspx
The grave search of the Volksbund doesn´t have him listed (they listed also MIA). At least not with the last name "van Gelderen" or "Gelderen".

There´s no way to skip the WASt, but you know that you need patience until you´ll get post from them and it can cost a few Euros too.
https://www.dd-wast.de/en/tracing-reque ... earch.html

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Re: Looking for info about FPN 12607 & 48547 (Latvia - 10.1944)

#9

Post by vanGelderen » 14 Nov 2015, 18:56

Hi Roman, tnx again for your time and welcome reply. The Zarini location is confusing ..I scanned maps (tnx to John's @ FTP) for hours I guess. The best result seems to be the one in the far north at coastal area?!

Getting back to the other mistery.. We had some answers in the late 40's early 50's and even in early 80's from the WASt.(I guess my other uncle retried some research at that time) I can imagine it was hard for them but as far as I can read the enquiry was set up clear. My grandfather asked info about his son, a SS Panzer Grenadier so there wasn't any hiding or unclear situation. Look at the link pics under here.. it also notes the page vermissten - Bildliste where I found his picture and the strange FPN from that Vet Komp.

enquiry:
Image

Image

answers:
Image

Image

Image



regs, Corneel.

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Re: Looking for info about FPN 12607 & 48547 (Latvia - 10.1944)

#10

Post by history1 » 14 Nov 2015, 21:29

Hi Corneel,

I guess you need to ask the DRK why your uncle is listed on this page in the VBL. There´s no reference at all to this unit in your docs. The search request clearly identifies him as SS-soldier.
Though the answer about his last unit as "Waffen-SS" is very broad and "Pnz.(=Panzer) Grenadier" isn´t a rank either but a branch of service. Maybe the answer why there´s no rank mentioned in the VBL photo.
Thanks for uploading the docs, much apreciated! Waht about some WASt - file you mentioned earlier, are they in your possession?

Cheers, Roman

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Re: Looking for info about FPN 12607 & 48547 (Latvia - 10.1944)

#11

Post by vanGelderen » 14 Nov 2015, 22:54

Hi Roman,

I will contact WASt asap. The doc I mentioned was partly in the first screens but hard to recognise.. under here again but whole of it incl stamp etc.
Image

It looks like a page/part from a bigger file. My family received this as part of a pdf file from the Red Cross. Another reason to get in contact with WASt again.
Another question just came up.. Do you think it is plausible my uncle was in Konju till 26.9.1944 and after that showed up again in northern part of Kurland (Zarini) It seems like a big retreat ..lots of km's traveling in a difficult area.


regs, c

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Re: Looking for info about FPN 12607 & 48547 (Latvia - 10.1944)

#12

Post by history1 » 15 Nov 2015, 12:11

Hi,

you didn´t request it but I thought it might help.
Here´s the front line as mentioned on page 2 in the justification of the Red Cross, 1st paragraph: End of August 1944:
https://goo.gl/maps/Qg86CoahXBH2
Of course is this only a roughly version as the troops didn´t rarely use the roads as front line. But its good as overview, IMO. But you see that this Konju fits exactly into the frontline.

In the next para they write that the Soviets started an offensive on three different parts of the frontline on September 14th. Breaking through the German lines east of Maldone, heading towards Maldone and 5 days later the Soviet forces stood already 20 km SE of Riga at the river Daugava (= Düna). https://goo.gl/maps/TWjnmG8nB9G2

Here´s a map I found about those battles:
Eastern_Front_1943-08_to_1944-12_de.png
Source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurland-Kessel
Second soviet advance mentioned: https://goo.gl/maps/iQLAS4dD5562

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Re: Looking for info about FPN 12607 & 48547 (Latvia - 10.1944)

#13

Post by history1 » 15 Nov 2015, 12:36

Another soviet operation which stopped there because of the strenght of the Germans: https://goo.gl/maps/jmfhp5SHRBr
Then German forces retreated in forced/fast marches towards west because to Riga there were Soviet forcies in their back near Täpsi: https://goo.gl/maps/BgzCXbnjkvR2
Can be that your uncle took part in this movement at the starting point was only ~60km from Konju!
Parts, especially medical troops with casualties, instead retreated to Tallinn and Paldiski for a naval evacuation: https://goo.gl/maps/bQTNqkFPFC22
I don´t remember now ( too many informations at the moment) where I did read about the naval evacuation of German troops from Liepaja and Ventspils: https://goo.gl/maps/B4v4eEVszsp
The mentioned sorroundings of Zarini called in your docs "north of Riga instead "NW of Riga" were your uncle got missed is quite near to those harbours into safety.
https://goo.gl/maps/g9gUY6WiuJN2
The Red Cross also writes that the front line on the beginn of October 1944 was quite stabile around Riga. But that in the weeks before in the rearward fronts massive partisan actions with heavy forces were detected.
Wikipedia mentions that the 4. SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Brigade „Nederland“ was shipped out in December 1944 to Germany for a new formation of the unit.
Source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/23._SS-Fr ... iederlande
What I also found is that during the 2nd. Kurland Battle, starting on October 27th, a whole regiment of the SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Brigade „Nederland“ was destroid except 25 men. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurland-K ... ndschlacht
It mentions the SS- unit as part of the 10th. Armeekorps (X. AK). Maybe you can find some info in John´s rolls?
That´s all at the moment.
Roman

PS: There are two different datas about his MIA: last information from him 26.9. and WASt. 16.10.1944. How is it possible that the WAST has a later data? Is it because the testimony you mentioned by another soldier who claimed that he saw him then?
Took another glance on the WASt -file. They do not mention that the place is in the north of Riga, just "Zarini/Lettland".

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Re: Looking for info about FPN 12607 & 48547 (Latvia - 10.1944)

#14

Post by vanGelderen » 15 Nov 2015, 17:28

Hi, many tnx for all your info. Parts of it I've read before but not in chronological way ..things really fall into place now.
To start with your last question. The info was in the previous posted images (DRK answer). It says "..raum Zarini ..nördlich Riga"
(cropped it under here)
Image

I am planning new downloads @ John's ftp and do some research based on your latest info.

His last letter is from 26-09-1944 (Konju) which is used in several documents as the last date. Then the eyewitness - story of this former SS soldier who said he saw him alive before 14-10-1944 but did not see him anymore on the 14th ..the morning after a big soviet attack. I found 16-10 also on some kind of official declaration / interview written in Dutch, which I can not address atm. I can imagine WASt or DRK took over this "last seen alive - date" ?!

I also realised I have some extra info, about his best mate (neighbours at home and best friends as well) ..he is on the Bildliste as well .. missed in 11.1944 They were together as long as we know..
Image



regs, Corneel

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Re: Looking for info about FPN 12607 & 48547 (Latvia - 10.1944)

#15

Post by history1 » 15 Nov 2015, 19:10

Good evening Corneel,

I read now that the 1st Kurland battle was started on Oct. 16th. 1944, from Riga towards the area between Ventspils and Liepaja by the Soviets. With 29 [!!!] Infantry Divisions, one armored corps with heavy tanks, and four motorized brigades. Source: My last link in the last post.

I though think it´s not reliable to claim by the DRK that he was MIA in "Zarini, north of Riga" when the original source WASt only states "Zarini, Latvia".
This 2nd Zarini also fits into the last mentioned offensive direction:
https://goo.gl/maps/7CDvECGpvVE2

I asume that your uncle should have been on the same page of the VBL as his friend and other fellows of his unit.
Did you note that the rank of his best friend is also missing and only mentions "infantryman" instead, like it was custom in Wehrmacht - units?
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bildtafel ... _Waffen-SS
All other dutchmen name their ranks exactly.

Regards,
Roman

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