The quality of the Handschar division

Discussions on the foreigners (volunteers as well as conscripts) fighting in the German Wehrmacht, those collaborating with the Axis and other period Far Right organizations. Hosted by George Lepre.
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FlyingStukas
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Location: Bosnia and Herzegovina

Re: The quality of the Handschar division

Post by FlyingStukas » 02 Feb 2021 17:00

Geoffrey Cooke wrote:
30 Jan 2021 23:51
FlyingStukas wrote:
06 Jan 2021 00:53
Geoffrey Cooke wrote:
05 Jan 2021 18:48
I know this thread has been inactive for awhile but....
ffbikersar wrote:
07 Nov 2016 19:11
It is possible to download complete pdf file of David Motadel's book " Islam and Nazi Germanys War " at

http://dl.yazdanpress.ir/BOOKS/HISTORY% ... arked).pdf

Quote from the page 231:

"When Kersten asked him about Handžar’s military per for mance, he replied: “First class, they are as tough as the best German divisions were at the beginning of the war. They regard their weapons as sacred. . . . The Moslems cling to their flag with the same passionate courage, the Prophet’s ancient green fl ag with a white half- moon, stained with the blood of ancient battles, its staff splintered with bullets.”[/b] 73"
Yes, and Motadel, attempting to exaggerate Islams role as much as possible for his books sake, much like those pushing other nishe topics, would qoute this on the Handschar's performance and not the countless putdowns on its dismal performance.
Can you provide any further explanation to your description of 'dismal' ?
A mass mutiny a few months into their operational service strikes me as ‘dismal’
I would advise you to read up on the facts about the mutiny itself.
1) It wasn't during their 'operational service', it was during the division's training in France. The division wasn't even called Handschar at the time
2) It was anything but a 'mass mutiny'. Read Lepre's book on the details of the mutiny and its size. It was just one Pionier baon. and the mutiny was very quickly extinguished. It was more the actual fact that such an event occurred rather than its description which is of importance.

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DFrolov1992
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Re: The quality of the Handschar division

Post by DFrolov1992 » 03 Feb 2021 01:22

George Lepre wrote:
06 Jan 2021 02:27
Hi all -

Some interesting topics have been raised here.

Regarding the Mufti's political outlook: Haj Amin was an old school Arab nationalist. He was like Nasser, not bin Laden. I still remember speaking to Djemal Ibrahomovic, the Flak Abteilung's imam, after the 9/11 attacks. He was mortified.

Regarding the division's performance in combat: when the division entered northeast Bosnia in March 1944, it was very effective. The proof is how quickly it pushed the Partisans out of the area bordered by the Sava, Bosna, Drina, and Spreca Rivers. By September of that year, after the Allied landings in France, Romania and Bulgaria changing sides, the assassination attempt against Hitler, Operation Bagration on the Eastern Front, and Turkey's continued neutrality, the division suffered from several thousand desertions. The Germans decided to disarm certain elements and sent the men to labor units.

Best regards,

George
Hello George

In connection with your mention of the combat activities of the division, there are a number of controversial issues related to this topic. In your book on page 150 (Unternehmen "Wegweiser"), referring to the personal diary of officer Jörg Deh, you mention the settlement "Bela Crkva", which, however, apart from a single mention on page 3 of the Tgb order. Nr. Ia. 28/44 g. Kdos. v. 2/29/1944. is not traced either on German headquarters maps, or in the reports of the Yugoslav State Commission, which scrupulously recorded the settlements affected by the actions of the division. How can this be explained? There are several questions regarding Unternehmen "Maibaum". In particular, with reference to the diary of Hans Meschendörfer, it is indicated that parts of the 28th regiment began advancing towards Stupari on April 24. In turn, the daily daily reports of Army Group "F" call the date of the beginning of the operation April 26 (see NARA T-78 R-331 6288684), which is also confirmed by Otto Kumm. (see NARA T-175 R-120 Fr. 2645891). It turns out that in the period from 23 to 24 April the regiment actually covered 24 km (!) On the open road without encountering any resistance? However, document R-331 Fr. 6288684 reported on 26 April about enemy forces 15 km south and southeast of Tuzla, then the 28th regiment was thrown back to the south in the immediate area of ​​responsibility. How can this contradiction be explained? It turns out that not all the forces of the regiment participated in the advance to Stupari? Or did the offensive of Reitel's people begin on April 26? Which source do you think is more trustworthy?

Best regards
Dmitrii
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