Czech Republic soldiers

Discussions on the foreigners (volunteers as well as conscripts) fighting in the German Wehrmacht, those collaborating with the Axis and other period Far Right organizations. Hosted by George Lepre.
_Metrick
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Re: Czech Republic soldiers

#16

Post by _Metrick » 17 Jan 2018, 23:19

Well, WW2 forums are www.palba.cz or www.valka.cz. Unfortunately both are in Czech, as far as I know on the first one there were occasionally questions in English from foreigners but not very often. I personally think first one is better. About genealogy, frankly I have no idea, it's not my cup of tea. Sorry man.

GregSingh
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Re: Czech Republic soldiers

#17

Post by GregSingh » 20 Jan 2018, 10:00

You can start here and see what's available in the archives: http://www.myczechroots.com/
But it all depends what info you have to start with as I already pointed out in my previous post.


Landser1943
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Re: Czech Republic soldiers

#18

Post by Landser1943 » 20 Jan 2018, 22:05

Thank you. Yes I have some informations, well, if somebody is interested to help me contact me with a private message... the real problem is identify the birthpalce

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Glynwed
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Re: Czech Republic soldiers

#19

Post by Glynwed » 30 Mar 2018, 23:21

I have wrote a history of some czech origin soldiers (from Sudetenland, Hultschin or Teschen area) here: https://www.fronta.cz/sekce/osudy-vojaku
Its in Czech, but you can use a online translator.

liska
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Re: Czech Republic soldiers

#20

Post by liska » 02 Apr 2018, 15:17

Landser1943 wrote:I think that thousands of Czech fought in SS or in the Wehrmacht, well, how I can find a birthplace of a Czech soldier? Does exist a list of German ethnic people in Czech Republic before the war?
Could you please post an evidence "of thousands of Czech fought in SS or in the Wehrmacht" as you wrote? Because it is and it isn´t true. I try to describe situation, but reality was more sophistiaced than i wrote below. So I will be happy with somebody want to write more sophiscitated and/or opposition view than is my simplified opinion below.

Maybe you have forgotten what Hitler did with CzechoSlovakia - Hitler did "divide et impera". If you think people czech mother tongue mostly served in WH/SS i don´t think so. If you mean czechoslovakian citizen with german mother tongue usually served for Third Reich that´s right.

Situation of obligated/volunteer constription to WH/SS from people from former Czechoslovakia after 1939 based on some different situations / conditions

FIRST of all you have to explore that divided Czechslovakia to these part. Prewar Czechoslovakia has area cca 140 thousand km2. Czechoslovakia Which was divided to:

a) cca 20% of area - part of Third Reich (after Munich Agreement 1938), basicly could called Sudety/Sudetenland - (majority of czech speaking/czech origin citizen from this area was forcibly expelled - cca 0,25 mil. people and minority which stay in Sudetenland happend as the citizens of II. category). People from this area usually to be constricpted to WH/SS and/or as the members of occupation forces Protectorat - see c) below (Gestapo, administrator/controller for industries,...). For example well know showman with german descent who served as a member WH (?? Kriegsmarine) in Danemark https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Holzmann. http://www.reflex.cz/clanek/kultura/725 ... tajil.html

b) cca 17% of area was part of King of Hungary. It happend in 2 phases - I. phase 1938 - south of Slovakia and Ruthenia - majority was people with hungarian mother tongue. II. phase happend in 1939 - rest of Ruthenia and part of East Slovakia - majority people in II. phase wasn´t hungarian mother tongue). I don´t have evidence of amount people who served in WH/SS, but i could happend, mostly after German occupation of Hungary 1944 (Operation Margarethe I).

c) cca 1% of area - part of Second Polish Republic - ethic composition was mixed - simplified man could say that there were no majority of Czech/Slovak or Polish origin (most of people identified himself as a Silesians), but in the northeast of Slovakia the ethic situation was different than i wrote. After Polish campaign these area became part of Third Reich or Slovak Republic (see letter e) below). There were one exeptions - called Hlučínsko area - cca 300 km2 - these people become (automatically) citizens of Third Reich and most of them have to served in WH/SS.

d) cca 35% of area was occupied area (Protectorat) mostly with cca 90% Czech origin inhabitants, i.e. Czech, Moravian, rest was composed by emigrants from Third Reich, (mostly german speaking) Jews and (mostly) pro-nazi inhabitants with German/Austrian origin inhabitants. These area was completely occupied by Third Reich (inhabitants have options to became German citizen, but it happend only by cca 5-10% people). There was two phases of control by Third Reich - first phase (till spring/summer 1941) was german hand in soft skin (i.e. half-independent govertment with czech PM - Alois Eliáš, strong resitance - group of Three kings,...). Second phase (which was illustrated that third man of Third Reich R. Heyidrich was appointed as Reichsprotektor of Protectorat) means that german fist in metal surface (cca 0,6 mil. people was forcibly move to Third Reich as the Totaleinsatz, elimination most of resistance and 95% members of SOE members, arrived of germans as a middle management, strong military presence, wide public presentation of german policy - total elimination of villages Lidice, Lezaky,...). There was no cooperation but control by Third Reich. Tactical goal was maximum output of production weapons (Pz38/Hetzer, Ar 96, Si 204, Bu 131, DFS gliders, Fw 189) machines, trucks, foods, logistic service (high density of rail network) and MRO of second line planes and training services for Luftwaffe in highest quality. Strategic goal (see Heydrich proposals after war) was eliminate czech people - 1/3 have to sterilizate and become as slaves after moving to Third Reich, 1/3 inhabitations have to chance to asimilate as the Germans (and move them to Ukraine,...), 1/3 have to executed (mostly intelligence) or workforce in Russia and their free houses was intended to native German (for example from italian South Tyrol)

According to question of people who served in WH/SS - well there were some collaborants (aka Quisling) who want to serve in WH/SS. But none important amount people served in WH/SS. I think it is impossible that that thousands served in WH/SS. Especially the people with German descent weren´t mostly constripted because Third Reich prefer them as a management for czech labours in Protectorat.

There were "facade" when Protectorat has own army called Vladni vojsko - cca 6 thousand people. They was armed with 1895 Mannlicher rifle gun, but none heavy armanement and Germans don´t thrust them, these "theatre soldiers" wasn´t part of anti-partisan/anti-resistence missions... even gun practises happend without ammunition, just only with air gun.

e) cca 27% of area has half-independent state (I. Slovak republic) an ally of Third Reich - majority of inhabitants was Slovakian people. Part of state (where was located majority of (weapon) industry called Pováží) was half-occupied called Schutzone (it was cca 4% from prewar CzechoSlovakia and cca 14% from I. Slovak Republic). Cooperation between Slovak Rep. and Third Reich was based on economics principles (=and was a little bargain for Third Reich).
According to question of people who served in WH/SS - Till 1942 there were 2 situations - Own slovakian army support WH in Polish campaign and in Operation Barbarossa (=2 division plus aircraft unit, part 17th army). Also minority with German descent could be constripted (after permission of Slovak goverment in cca 1943) - some source estimated 9 thousand members of SS https://sk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpatsk% ... k%C3%BD-10.

After Slovak uprising (important part of former pro-nazi Slovakian goverment want to "change side" a want to became a ally with Allies) there were important number of paramilitary pro-nazi units. Formal Slovakian army was reduced/surrounded and Germans want support and armed paramilitary units like Hlinkova garda, Domobrana. Situation 1944-45 with collaboration Slovaks with WH/SS was more sophisticated than i wrote, but it is sure, that some Slovaks hardly fight for Third Reich (mostly in anti-partisan mission)


SECONDARY is imporant ethic composition and locations majority/minorities of CzechoSlovakia
https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A1ro ... _republiky.

From ethnical composition by table of census 1930 you can see that there were 4 different situation
a) most from 3 milions Germans (I estimate more-less 80% support Third Reich) have to obligated to constript to WH.
b) most from 8 milions Czech, i.e. Czech, Moravia, Sileasia weren´t fight. Except cca 20 thousand who emigrate to France, UK. And except some collaborants or Czech/German mixed origin (less than 1%) who voluntarily served in WH. Also tens of thousand was more/less parts of resitance (and this was reason very strong military presence of WH in Protectorat). Some people were in Totaleinsatz in Third Reich (cca 0,6 mil) based on forced pricinple (=i.e. most of people born in 1921, 1922,... have to be member Totaleinsatz) and(/or) significant members was object of slavery work in concentration camps - I estimate that cca 0,35 milion people from Protectorat work (and most of them was murdered) in these camps. Rest, i.e. 7 milion people was workforce for agricultural/industry strongly directed by Third Reich mostly managened by Germans (by Germans from prewar Germany/Austria an/or czechoslovakian cizitens with german descent).
c) most from cca 2 milions Slovaks ( hundreds thousand Slovaks lives in areas which was occupied) served in half-independent Slovakian army which till 1944 cooperate with Third Reich, after uprising 1944 regular army was reduced/unarmed/surrounded/transfered as the support units to Italy. And after 1944 there were maybe tens thousand pro-nazi paramilitary units which support Nazi against Slovak goverment - for the figure i have not evidence, these number i just estimate. Important part of rest inhabitations could works in Third Reich as a Totaleinsatz - these were based on economics principles (=difference of letter c) above).
d) significant amount from cca 1,5 milions inhabitations in areas occupied by Royal Hungary was hungarian descent and have to constripted to Royal Hungarian army. Rest people in these areas (hudreds thousands Slovaks, Ruthenians, Jews) was source of workforce for mostly agricultural sector.


Conclusion:
I thing that there were some (tens) of thousand who directly served in WH/SS,... and other (tens) thousand who served as a management for Nazi. Most of them was czechoslovakian citizen with german descent. Till 1944 some (tens) thousand soldiers of half-indepedent Slovak republic support WH/SS.

Allies support directly (tens) thousand czechoslovakia cizitens. There were some 15-25 thousand who fight for Poland, France, and them UK against Nazis. From cca 1942 some thousands fight for USSR (important part of them was prewar emigrant leftist/communist who move to USSR and mostly they gained USSR citizenship). After 1943 part soldiers (mostly officers or well trained plane personell) was transfer from UK to USSR as a head infarty, armoured and aircraft units which was composed mostly from Slovaks who defected from Nazis or who was surrounded by USSR when slovak units fight for Nazis. Other source of personnel was people in nowadays Ukraine (this area is called Volynia) where from cca 18th century lived some tens thousand emigrants with czech descent. When this area was captured by USSR (Bagration operation...) these people was partially voluntarily partially captive mobilized to USSR army, but these people prefer to transfer to CzechoSlovakia Army corps. So in the end WW2 cca 15 thousands czechoslovakian cizitens fight for western allies and cca 20-40 thousands czechoslovakian citizens (and poland cizitens from Volynia) fought for USSR against Third Reich.

liska
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Re: Czech Republic soldiers

#21

Post by liska » 02 Apr 2018, 17:13

Sid Guttridge wrote:The Germans three times turned down offers by the Czech president to send a volunteer legion to the Eastern Front in 1941-42. Therefore no Czechs served in German uniform. The Germans wanted to resettle Bohemia-Moravia with Germans and so were reluctant to concede them anything that gave them credibility.

Instead, nine of the ten battalions of the Protectorate Army were sent to Italy to serve as pioneers in 1944-45.

Without doubt pre-war Czechoslovak Volksdeutsch citizens served in the Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS, but not Czechs.

Cheers,

Sid.

According czech historians there are no source to specify these informations. Because there were mixed some moments. For example according soviet sources in 1956 there were cca 70 thousand surrounded persons (probably i.e. not only pows, but also civilians). Unfortunatelly we don´t know if it means POWs and/or captured civilians with czechoslovakian citizenship and/or capterd persons with czech/slovak descent with third states citizenship.

Sources:
https://www.fronta.cz/dotaz/pocty-nemeckych-zajatcu Overview see third line in second table
https://www.fronta.cz/dotaz/cesti-zajat ... wehrmachtu... some explanation what could mean figure 70 thousand. It contain some information of CzechoSlovakian envoy in USSR (but credibility of these informations is reduced, that envoy Mr. Fierlinger strongly support USSR against UK/US and he prefer communism in Czechoslovakia and very tight cooperation with USSR/submission czech goverment for soviets goverment/NKVD)

This figure probably combined these people (my opinion)
a) emigrants from tsar Russian empire after revolution 1917 who moved to CzechoSlovakia. Together with liberation CzechoSlovakia from Nazis by Red Army there were plenty of teams NKVD who look for these emigrants and without court and againts czechoslovakian law these people were captured and transfer to USSR. During activities NKVD there were many mistakes when was arrested many people with no connection to tsar Russia. And part of this mistakes was corrected long time after WW2 (=mostly after Stalin´s death)
b) POWs from Slovak army who fight for Nazis (mostly part of 17th Army WH). And/or also defected Slovaks who don´t want fight for their pro-nazis Slovak goverments
c) POWs from WH/SS who were cizitens of prewar Czechoslovakia and mostly they were german descent=sudeten German.
d) POWs from Polish campaign when some thousand (mostly) Czech fight for Poland and was captured 1939 by USSR and transported to soviet´s gulags. For example president of Czechoslovakia in 60´s and 70´s https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludv%C3%ADk_Svoboda
e) people from Ruthenia, prewar it was east part of CzechoSlovakia. In 1944 there were happend quasi "democratic" census that Ruthenia "want" to be part USSR. People with different opinion were often arrested...
f) people with czech descent-cizitens of Austria and from Romania who were mostly forcibly moved to CzechoSlovakia (to Sudeten areas)
g) POWs from Royal Hungarian army who were prewar Czechoslovakian cizitens and became cizitens of Hungary in 1938/1939 when Hungary occupied part of Czechoslovakia.

LH007
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Re: Czech Republic soldiers

#22

Post by LH007 » 03 Apr 2018, 21:28

liska wrote: Could you please post an evidence "of thousands of Czech fought in SS or in the Wehrmacht" as you wrote? Because it is and it isn´t true.
About 12 thousand of soldiers from Hlučín region (incorporated into Prussia) was drafted into Wehrmacht. About 20 thousand from Těšín region (those in Volkliste). Granted, not all were ethnic Czechs. ( http://www.ceskatelevize.cz/ct24/archiv ... wehrmachtu )

Ethnic Czechs from annexed border regions, who didn't opt for citizenship of rump Czechoslovakia, were regularly drafted as Reich's citizens (since second year of the war, IIRC). Just the Reichsgau Sudetenland had 170k ethnic Czechs with German citizenship. ( https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Říšská_žu ... yvatelstvo )

The book Češi ve wehrmachtu (František Emmert, 2005) covers Hlučín and Těšín, but completely ignores ethnic Czechs in other border regions.


In addition to Vládní vojsko (mostly ceremonial army of the Protectorate) there was attempt to form Czech military unit to fight for the Germans, in March 1945. They found under 150 volunteers, but these were still under training when the war ended. ( https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svatováclavská_rota )

LH007
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Re: Czech Republic soldiers

#23

Post by LH007 » 03 Apr 2018, 21:50

Sid Guttridge wrote:The Germans three times turned down offers by the Czech president to send a volunteer legion to the Eastern Front in 1941-42. Therefore no Czechs served in German uniform.
This is true for ethnic Czechs (with no direct German ancestry) with citizenship of Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia. Ethnic Czechs who obtained German citizenship as a result of 1938 annexation of border regions (several hundred of thousands), and those who were placed on the Volkliste (as Silesians), could be drafted.

There was one offer by the Protectorate President Hácha, to send the "Government Army" (several thousand of poorly equipped soldiers) to the Eastern Front, after assassination of Heydrich. It was refused. Several other offers were from the "Czech Union of Warriors", pro-German association of former soldiers. They offered to create a volunteer force, but this was also refused.

In March 1945 German authorities finally allowed to set up Czech force, to fight the Red Army. It found under 150 volunteers and was still in training when the war ended.

liska
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Re: Czech Republic soldiers

#24

Post by liska » 04 Apr 2018, 09:39

some adds to answer of Mr. LH007 to question of Mr. Sid Guttridge.

these mystical "volunteer" legion comprised from Czech soldiers to Eastern Front could be probably "Goverment Army". But in reality it was theatre unit. For example their gun practises was withnout ammunition instead practise with rifles it was used air guns.

And I think that Nazis want any Czech to Eastern Front. Mostly due strong czech resistance till 1942 (which was deeply reduced by Nazis brutallity see Lidce, Lezaky, and due massive transfer of young people to Germany as a Totaleinsatz). After 1942 Nazis moved many units and Germans/Volksdeutsche, so at the end of war there were ratio cca 1 German (mostly armed and/or paramilitary) vs. 5-6 Czech (meaning just only area without German majority like Sudetenland). In 1939 the ratio could 1 German vs. 10-12 Czech - the ratio is estimated based on partially source like https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A1ro ... %C3%BAdaje
https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protektor ... y_a_Morava
https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudet%C5% ... N%C4%9Bmci
and first phases of elimination Czech by Nazis https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%BDcv ... C5%A1ovsku
https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kone%C4%8 ... t%C3%A1zky

Secondary since I WW there were some signicant marks of friendship behaviour Czech to Russian people. See battle where fight defected A-H soldiers (czech speaking) against German emperor army https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bakhmach.

And with little trust Nazis to Czech soldiers is proof related with using most of Goverment Army in Italy. During six weeks cca 20% personell (including officers) defected to italian anti-nazis partisans, so rest of soldiers was almost totally unarmed. Nowaday in Czech language is idiom to describtion situation when some person is 100% useless - this ironical comparsion is "to be useful as Goverment Army in Italy"
See infos from Czech historians i.e.
http://www.vhu.cz/vladni-vojsko-a-jeho- ... -v-italii/
http://www.vhu.cz/vladni-vojsko-a-osudy ... orika-vhu/

Rest of Goverment Army which stay in Czech (i.e. Protectorat) was hostile to Nazis. See participations Goverment Army against Nazis during Prague uprising http://www.rozhlas.cz/bitvaorozhlas/obr ... o--1479507 see part of Article "Vládní vojsko povstává" and "Vládní vojsko brání Staroměstskou radnici i Pražský hrad"

liska
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Re: Czech Republic soldiers

#25

Post by liska » 04 Apr 2018, 12:38

LH007 wrote:
liska wrote: Could you please post an evidence "of thousands of Czech fought in SS or in the Wehrmacht" as you wrote? Because it is and it isn´t true.
About 12 thousand of soldiers from Hlučín region (incorporated into Prussia) was drafted into Wehrmacht. About 20 thousand from Těšín region (those in Volkliste). Granted, not all were ethnic Czechs. ( http://www.ceskatelevize.cz/ct24/archiv ... wehrmachtu )

Ethnic Czechs from annexed border regions, who didn't opt for citizenship of rump Czechoslovakia, were regularly drafted as Reich's citizens (since second year of the war, IIRC). Just the Reichsgau Sudetenland had 170k ethnic Czechs with German citizenship. ( https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Říšská_žu ... yvatelstvo )

The book Češi ve wehrmachtu (František Emmert, 2005) covers Hlučín and Těšín, but completely ignores ethnic Czechs in other border regions.


In addition to Vládní vojsko (mostly ceremonial army of the Protectorate) there was attempt to form Czech military unit to fight for the Germans, in March 1945. They found under 150 volunteers, but these were still under training when the war ended. ( https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svatováclavská_rota )
Mr. LH0007 thank you very much for post links with some specific sources of evidences and figures.

I want to add something to Czech in Organisation Todt and similar organisation (like firemans,...). This web is in Czech and in German language, see chapter 5. http://web.nacr.cz/zw/de/kap05.htm http://web.nacr.cz/zw/html/kap05.htm
Note I didn´t verify the data in this web, so it could be helpful to read also some other related sources (https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tot%C3%A1 ... azen%C3%AD)

erteple
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Re: Czech Republic soldiers

#26

Post by erteple » 25 Apr 2018, 06:40

LH007 wrote: In March 1945 German authorities finally allowed to set up Czech force, to fight the Red Army. It found under 150 volunteers and was still in training when the war ended.
I'd like to add, the unit was supposed to become "SS St. Wienceslaw" with 1000 men, but eventually the Germans got just 77-men battalion under SS Brigadeführer Voss. Armed with one MG and a few rifles and still not properly trained when the country was freed. Their training took part in Čeperce village. During final days, they hung a white flag instead of swastika, some of them fled, some were killed by angry crowd as traitors in german uniforms.

They were recruited mostly because of fear of bolshevism - communism. IMO The germans could not expect any better results as they had no "levers", since they were quite ruthless in years following an assasination of R. Heydrich. Also, all Czechs that sympathised with Germany were already drafted. In the years of occupation, lots of people changed their names (like from Myška to similar Mischke, Novák to Nowak, Mlynář to Miller - same meaning) and claimed themselves German blood, thus enlisted.

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