Légion des Volontaires Français LVF

Discussions on the foreigners (volunteers as well as conscripts) fighting in the German Wehrmacht, those collaborating with the Axis and other period Far Right organizations. Hosted by George Lepre.
Sid Guttridge
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Re: Légion des Volontaires Français LVF

#16

Post by Sid Guttridge » 23 Jan 2019, 15:21

Hi David,

The French losses outlined above are entirely plausible, as the Slovak example shows. The Slovaks were engaged in the same activities as the French, but spent much more time at the front.

Cheers,

Sid.

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: Légion des Volontaires Français LVF

#17

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 23 Jan 2019, 16:49

Sid Guttridge wrote:
23 Jan 2019, 15:21
Hi David,

The French losses outlined above are entirely plausible, as the Slovak example shows. The Slovaks were engaged in the same activities as the French, but spent much more time at the front.

Cheers,

Sid.
I dont know when or where the Slovaks were engaged.

The Frenchs were supposed to fight before Moscow during the worst moment... and they are supposed not to suffer more than that ?

I have some doubts.

Maybe 166 KIA is the number of deaths during that week before Mosow.


Sid Guttridge
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Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Légion des Volontaires Français LVF

#18

Post by Sid Guttridge » 24 Jan 2019, 14:20

Hi Davidfrankenburg,

The Slovak Rapid Division was continuously on the southern end of the Eastern Front from August 1941 to mid 1943. It served at the battle of Kiev and advanced across the southern Ukraine until late October 1941. It then dug in on the River Mius line in the winter of 1941/42, advanced into the Caucasus in mid-1942 and held a position in the Caucasus Mountains in the winter of 1942/43. For around half of this time it was in association with the W-SS's Wiking Division.

The Security Division spent most of 1941-43 in the Pripet Marshes in northern Ukraine, though its artillery served briefly at the front during the Soviet Izium offensive in 1942.

The Rapid Division was continuously at the front for about 18 months, compared with a week or two for the LVF.

If you believe that the LVF suffered higher casualties than detailed above, then you must offer something more substantive than mere suspicions. If the casualty figures you offer are for just the one week in December 1941, then they are very heavy. If kept at the front under that level of attrition, the LVF would have ceased to exist in about a month. If this had happened, it would have had severe consequences for German prospects of recruiting more Frenchmen.

As I understand it, the LVF proved not up to the demands of front line combat and was quickly withdrawn for rear area security operations, never to return to the front. These rear area security operations would, if the Slovak experience was anything to go by, not be likely to cause very many battle casualties.

Cheers,

Sid.

DavidFrankenberg
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Posts: 1235
Joined: 11 May 2016, 02:09
Location: Earth

Re: Légion des Volontaires Français LVF

#19

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 26 Jan 2019, 12:45

I have found some infos in the forum : :thumbsup:
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=106040#p2125674
only 240 men were involved in the combat indeed
the rest was in reserve
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=106040&start=15
they sufered 122 losses

122 losses is very few, but reported to the 240 invomved it is very high, more than 50% !
That's why we can find very often that the losses were high before Moscow concerning the LVF :milsmile:

Sid Guttridge
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Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Légion des Volontaires Français LVF

#20

Post by Sid Guttridge » 26 Jan 2019, 12:57

Hi Davidfrankenberg,

Another thing to remember is that, unlike the German Army with its conscription and Ersatzheer depot structure, the LVF had no settled depot and no guarantee of further reinforcements. It was therefore constitutionally less able to sustain losses than similar sized German units.

Cheers,

Sid.

DavidFrankenberg
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Posts: 1235
Joined: 11 May 2016, 02:09
Location: Earth

Re: Légion des Volontaires Français LVF

#21

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 26 Jan 2019, 16:18

Sid Guttridge wrote:
26 Jan 2019, 12:57
Hi Davidfrankenberg,

Another thing to remember is that, unlike the German Army with its conscription and Ersatzheer depot structure, the LVF had no settled depot and no guarantee of further reinforcements. It was therefore constitutionally less able to sustain losses than similar sized German units.

Cheers,

Sid.
The Germans always treated their allies this way. Hungarians, Romanians, even Italians were despised.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Légion des Volontaires Français LVF

#22

Post by Sid Guttridge » 26 Jan 2019, 17:31

Hi Davidfrankemberg,

The Germans certainly had a superiority complex, but they did not necessarily treat their Allies badly.

The simple fact was that none of their allies, except the Finns in their own environment, were capable of withstanding the Red Army on the main Eastern Front without German mechanized support. This was seldom forthcoming in the necessary strength because the Germans had other priorities.

If you read Third Axis, Fourth Ally, about the Romanians, you will find several examples of unsupported German infantry divisions giving way under heavy Red Army mechanized attack for similar reasons to Romanian (and by implication Hungarian and Italian) infantry divisions.

The LVF's problem was different from that of the minor Axis allies, all of whom had conscription and well-developed depot structures to turn out replacements.

The LVF, by contrast, were volunteers, and had to be treated a bit more gently if more volunteers were to be recruited.

Cheers,

Sid.

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