Italians in the Waffen-SS

Discussions on the foreigners (volunteers as well as conscripts) fighting in the German Wehrmacht, those collaborating with the Axis and other period Far Right organizations. Hosted by George Lepre.
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Rand
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#76

Post by Rand » 01 Sep 2005, 22:51

Richard Landwehr is a little short of facts the majority of the time. It's a shame as he has had access to tons of rare photos and the like.

Rand.

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#77

Post by kucek » 17 Nov 2005, 12:31

Rudi have right. Batallion "Debica" was create on SS-Tr.Ub.Platz Heidelager, later rename Debica. Stationed on "Ringstrasse 1".

I have question: maybe someon have picture Batallion "Debica" made on Heidelager?? Maybe in some book?
Greething from Heidelager



_____________________________________________________________
http://republika.pl/pustkow"
Last edited by kucek on 30 Nov 2005, 17:38, edited 4 times in total.


kucek
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#78

Post by kucek » 30 Nov 2005, 17:26

Hello again!
Today I found this:

Image

Marc Rikmenspoel
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#79

Post by Marc Rikmenspoel » 21 Jun 2006, 08:56

[Moved here from "non germans in the Waffen SS Divisions"]
BKG wrote:I'm reading right now a good book about the Charkow battle and the diary of a Hauptsturmfuehrer of the 3rd Bn 6th panzer grenadier "Theodor Eicke" , Totenkopf Division. He was born in Nurnberg but his family was from Sicily. I think he was considered german at all the effects, besides the italian origins and name, but i was wondering if there is any reference to such non volkdeutsch volunteers in the main WSS Divisions (NOT in the european volunteer divs). This was an example but it wasn't the only case.

PS -he was awarded by Knights Iron Cross on april 1943, his name is reported on the 5th WSS Division Wiking journal and awarded of nahkampfspange and der kriegsorden des Deutschen Kreuz
You must mean Arzelino "Lino" Masarie. The first thought that comes to mind involves two men from the South Tyrol, who WERE considered Germans, but who had Italian surnames. That would the Knight's Cross (and other high awards) winners Karl Nicolussi-Leck (Wiking) and Hermann Maringgele (Florian Geyer).

A strange case was Sven-Erik Olsson, who served as Heinz Harmel's personal signaller with Frundsberg. He was considered a Swedish volunteer, but in reality, he was half Swedish and half German, and was raised in the German community in Tallinn, Estonia

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BKG
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#80

Post by BKG » 22 Jun 2006, 06:11

Hi Marc,
yes i was referring to Lino Masserie :)

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ppaci
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#81

Post by ppaci » 02 Nov 2006, 03:26

Hi, my name is Paolo and I am new to this forum.
It is almost 20 years that I am collecting WWII German and Italian Fascist/ RSI items.
Anybody knows which dagger was given to the Italian SS?

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Marcus
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Italian volunteers on video

#82

Post by Marcus » 11 Nov 2006, 00:15

Drapeau Noir posted this link in another thread but it deserves to be posted here as well.
Drapeau Noir wrote:Wolff and Graziani awards Italian SS Volounteers and Polizeisten with Bandenkampfabzeichen!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8C05_KOc8s

Cheers
T
/Marcus

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panzerschreck
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#83

Post by panzerschreck » 11 Nov 2006, 01:15

A most interesting link, Mr. Wendel! Thanks for sharing it.

Best regards,
Henrik

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logibear64
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#84

Post by logibear64 » 17 Nov 2006, 22:20

WOW! That bit of film is priceless!!
Thanks for posting!
Phil

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FRANCY RITTER
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#85

Post by FRANCY RITTER » 22 Nov 2006, 19:35

Thank you Marcus..grazie mille :)

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faf_476
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#86

Post by faf_476 » 02 Jan 2007, 10:23

This phots are rare indeed...

Tnx, for this Info.. :)

rose05
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#87

Post by rose05 » 11 Jan 2007, 15:22

I know some of them wore German SS helmet.Were some of them wear standard German SS-Waffen uniform?

Rob - wssob2
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Deeper investigation into Italians in the W-SS

#88

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 10 Jul 2008, 11:52

I thought the "Italians in the SS" meme was worth exploring further in a separate thread, so I'm splitting it off from http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=32569


Here's what I've researched, primarily from sources such as Sergio Corbatt & Marco Nava's Sentire - Pensare - Volere, The Italian Campaign (Time-Life WWII Series), The Italian Army 1940-45 (3) Italy 1943-45 (Osprey), among other secondary sources.

On July 23, 1943, the Italian Fascist Grand Council deposed Mussolini and placed him under arrest. Naturally, this move greatly worried Hitler, who immediately ordered the I & II SS Panzer Corps and the LSSAH Division to northern Italy to assist German units already stationed there to assume control of the situation.

During this time, things are pretty chaotic within the Italian Armed Forces. Throughout the late summer/ early fall of 1943, some Italian troops willingly disarm. Others fight German units attempting to disarm them. Some will switch sides and for example in the Balkans, join up with Partisan forces. Others want to continue to fight on the side of the Axis. For example, on July 28, MSVN troops stationed in Zagreb, Croatia send a telegram to Berlin requesting to be transferred into the Waffen-SS. The SS-HA and SS-FHA , at this stage of the war desperate for new manpower sources for the W-SS regardless of ideological or racial scruples, thus first began preparations to accept Italian volunteers.

In August, German authorities (NSDAP, Heer, SS, etc.) quickly come up with plans to retain control of the situation in Italy. For example, on August 31, Himmler orders that Italian fugitives and deserters from the MSVN and Italian Fascist Party should be detained and collected for eventual absorbsion into the W-SS. He is also interested in the possibility of recruiting elite Italian Alpine and Bersaglieri troops into the SS. The SS assumes that the Heer will absorb regular Italian Army soldiers; however, the OKW is not too interested in recruiting or conscripting Italian troops, as it considers them poor-quality soldiers with low morale.

Meanwhile, Italy tips more into the Allied camp. On September 3, Allied forces invade Italy proper. On September 8th, the Italian government under Badoglio announces an armistice with Allies (note not officially signed until Sept 18). Predictably, German forces dissolve the Italian government and seize control of the country. OKW Field Marshall Keitel orders that any Italian troops unwilling to continue fighting for the Axis are to become prisoners of war. Fascist prisoners are to be transferred to SS custody.

So by the second week of September you have German units (often forcibly) disarming Italian troops. For example, between Sept 9-12, the
4th SS Division troops disarmed the 14th Regiment of the Italian Pinerolo division at Volos, Greece. In the first two weeks of September, the 7th SS Prinz Eugen operated around the Dalmatian coast, capturing & disarming 30,000 troops of the Italian IV Corps at Ragusa (modern Dubrovnik). The LSSAH division operated in NE Italy and Slovenia, capturing Italians troops and battling partisans. And of course on Sept 12 you have Skorzeny and his Luftwaffe paratroopers springing Mussolini from jail and packing him off to see Hitler, who installs Il Duce as the puppet leader of the German-sponsored RSI government.

Perhaps the most infamous disarmament of Italian troops occurred on the Greek island of Cefalonia, where the Italian "Acqui" Division, under General Antonio Gandin, were stationed. After negotiations between the two sides to surrender the division broke down, the Germans attacked the "Acqui" Division, which suffered circa 1,250 combat casualties. The division surrendered, and the Germans proceeded to execute over FOUR THOUSAND disarmed Italian officers and men. The Germans then packed off the surviving 4,000 divisional members onto ships to be sent to Germany as slave laborers. Tragically, an estimated THREE THOUSAND of these troops are lost at sea when their ships sink in a minefield.

All total, the Germans are estimated to have shipped off an estimated 615,000 disarmed Italian troops to the Reich as slave laborers of which an estimated 30,000 died of neglect during their captivity. So when we discuss the "300" Italians that supposedly served in the LAH, let's not forget the hundreds of thousands that served as slave laborers to put it all into perspective.

Getting back to Italian W-SS recruitment, the following happened during the latter half of September, 1943:

Sept 24:
Mussolini and Himmler meet; Himmler authorizes the recruitment of Italian ex-fascists into Waffen-SS. SS volunteers will receive better pay & rations than Italian fascist units and are completely independent of the Salo government - a clear indication that Mussolini is nothing to the Germans but a convenient figurehead. Recruitment efforts begin; much use made of fascist propaganda techniques, such as a 3-fingered, palm inward salute symbolizing "onore, corragio, fedeltá" (honor, courage, loyalty) and slogans such as "Per l'onore, per la vita" (For honor and for life)

Mussolini sends two emissaries to Berlin to meet with SS-FHA commander Hans Juttner to present a nine-point plan for two MSVN divisions to serve under SS command. The emissaries, members of the group “Friends of Fascism in Germany”, volunteer to organize recruitment for the divisions. I'm sure Juttner was polite, but he does not accept the offer.

Meanwhile, the SS begin preparations to form a "SS-Batallion Debica" at Heidelager under Italian Major Fortunato, a former Bersaglieri officer, and former CO of the 6th Bersaglieri Regt. Most of the Italian SS volunteers come from the 31st Tank Battalion of the Italian Lombardia division plus former members of the Julia alpine division. Unit strength: 20 officers and 571 men.

In October, 1943 occurs the following:

Oct 2: Himmler orders the formation of the Italian Waffen Militz (Milizia Armata). The order specifies that:

* The Milizia Armata will eventually consist of two divisions ; one formed in 1943, the other in 1944
* Milizia Armata battalions will be formed immediately to assist in anti-partisan operations in northern Italy
* Milizia Armata unit will only fight in Italy
* The units will eventually see front line service
* Milizia Armata troops will wear Italian uniforms with SS-style collartabs but with another base color. Ranks will be displayed on both collar tabs. Officers and NCOs will wear German-style shoulder straps. (Note - I believe the "SS style" refers to the dimensions, not the sig-runes, especially given the specific directive that rank will be displayed on both tabs - Rob)

Himmler directs the SS-FHA, the Orpo, and the HSSPF for Italy that SS-Brigadeführer Peter Hansen will form the Milizia Armata at Münsingen.

Meanwhile, representatives of RSI Field Marshall Graziani are engaged in difficult negotiations with the OKW regarding releasing detained Italians for service in the RSI Army. The SS attempt to capitalize on the situation by mounting a recruiting campaign among the incarcerated Italian troops. Initial results are great – thousands of Italians volunteer – to get out of the POW camps. The SS eventually has to spend much time and effort weeding out the “false volunteers” and the poor quality troops. Italians soldiers deems unsuitable for SS service are sent back to POW camps or prisons.

Oct 9:
SS-HA Commander Gottlob Berger reports that 13,062 Italian SS troops are gathered at Münsingen. An additional 1,700 Italian SS volunteers are en route by train from Dresden, plus another 1,000 en route from southern France. Il Duce proclaims that Italian SS volunteers are the center of the "Aryan spirit" in Italy.

Some Italian troops volunteers for a variety of reasons other than to get out of prison camps. Some volunteers as a form of protest against the Italian armistice. Others volunteer out of a sense of loyalty to Mussolini, to the Axis and the alliance with Germany. Some volunteers because of their anti-communist belief and some for the attraction of the SS mystique. Interestingly, the "European SS" concept did not resonate with many of the Italian volunteers, perhaps because they did not share the 1941-43 SS legionnaire experiences that other western European SS did. Postwar, professor (and former Italian SS veteran) Pio Filippani-Ronconi, postulated that many the Italian soldiers volunteered for W-SS service to prove that rather than being "soldiers like the others" they were in essence the " best of the bunch"*.

(* p 26 "Sentire Pensare Volere: "di fronte a fiamminghi, tedeschi, valloni, etc. noi italiani potevano dimonstrare di essere I migliori di tutti, in ogni senso e in ogni campo”)

And in November 1943, the following occurred:

Since September, the Germans collect incarcerated Italian soldiers at TUP Münsingen. The Heer provides instructors and guard personnel. Italian ex-Carabinieri (military police) also help Germans maintain order . Italian troops continue to wear their original uniforms from various units. The SS-Ausbildungsstab (recruiting dept.) attempts to recruit personnel for the Milizia Armata.

The situation is chaotic as the SS frantically tries to sort out reliable volunteers from the false ones. SS volunteers are given Totenkopf pins to wear on their lapels. Training goes poorly as cold weather and a lack of cigarettes dampen morale.

Former Bersaglieri Major Guido Fortunato continues to gather a cadre of especially motivated SS volunteers under his command. When Maj. Fortunato first screens applicants, he finds only 38 out of 400 acceptable. This cadre eventually becomes the “Debica” battalion.

Nov 3:
XIX MSVN Battalion “Fedelissimo” re-enters Italy.

Nov 11:
Italian SS volunteers at Münsingen swear a loyalty oath to Hitler in a ceremony in the central roll-call square. To assuage Italian sensibilities, the loyalty oath includes the phrase “per the concession of the RSI President Benito Mussolini, I swear loyalty to the Supreme Commander of the Axis Forces.”

After the ceremony, the Italian volunteers are informed that they will be transferred to Italy. The troops are given the choice to stay with the SS’ Milizia Armata or join the RSI Army. Circa 1,000 opt to join the RSI Army.

100 Italian SS volunteers are then assigned to various specialist schools, including the SS Administrative School at Dachau and the SS Drivers Training and Replacement Battalion. The SS send a final 100 unsuitable recruits back to POW camps.

Milizia Armata strength: Circa 8,000 men. An additional 600 men are assigned to the nacent “Debica” Battalion and an additional 500 are sent to Greece with Battalion Fabris.

So basically in the fall of 1943 you have RFSS Himmler setting up two tiers of Italian SS - the smaller, better-quality, ardently-fascist, pro-SS "first tier" Debica battalion (later augmented by a sister SS Battalion Vendetta and a larger, less well-trained Milizia Armata which at least at first wasn't considered a "proper" W-SS unit but an auxiliary force designed for security operations in Northern Italy. The Debica and Vendetta battalions were eventually to briefly see front-line combat at Anzio but overall when all the Italian SS units were combined to form the SS Italian Legion and then the 29th SS Division, the Italian SS served in rear-area counterinsurgency duties under HoSSPF Karl Wolff.

As for Italians serving in other SS units, let's take it on a case-by-case basis:

LSSAH


former forum member Ostuf Charlemagne posted the following:
seems they were 300 italians serving within LSSAH.... In 1943,after the 8th september armistice,some fascist soldiers wanted to stay loyal to the Axis and joined the division... most were used as mecanicians since the LSSAH had seized lot of italians vehicles.But after the division was sent to Ukrain in November,many were sent to replace losses within the panzergrenadieren rgts of the division.In March 44 ,50 of them accepted to be sent to the italian SS brigade ..this group was formed at the Lichterfelde Kaserne,Berlin's depot of the LSSAH,and traveled by train to Italy ,ounder guidance of german oberscharfuehrer Willy Detering,to Verona,Italy. Those were the first italians of the italian SS Legion to wear the SS runes black tabs,while their comrades had always the red tabs.
(and ones of the fews to be tattoed - the italian brigade volunteers were never tattoed.)
Ostuf Charlemagne sums up most of the "common knowledge" salient points regarding Italians in the LSSAH. Given that we know the division was stationed in NE Italy in the fall of 1943, and given that we know some Italian troops wanted to continue fighting on the side of the Axis, it is entirely possible that some Italians ended up in the division. What isn't clear is the status of these volunteers. Were they "officially" incorporated into the division as W-SS members? Did RFSS Himmler or the SS-HA know about this? Or were the Italians auxiliaries or "hiwis" - not official members of the division but foreign dogsbodies given the job to help run things at the motor pool with all its seized Italian military vehicles? Did they serve as troops or as hiwis in the panzergrenadier units during the LSSAH's fall 1944 battles on the Eastern Front?

Special thanks to Fancy Ritter for posting his photos of LSSAH vehicles in Italy.

The URL (http://www.centrostudilaruna.it/volonta ... fenss.html - an essay by Massimiliano Afiero - mentions the following (translation provided by Babelfish with my edits - Rob)
Beyond the Italians in the 24th SS and 29th SS Divisions, many other Italians were framed in several divisions SS after the 8 September armistice. For personal order of Hitler, all the German units were authorized to recruit voluntary Italians, above all the members of the Military service. In the september of 1943 in Italy some formations of Waffen SS, the first between all Leibstandarte Adolf were present Hitler recalled from the eastern front. At least 300 military Italians, came quickly enlisted after 8th September in the LAH.

The German commanders appreciated the presence of the Italians in their formation, to the aim to use them as drivers and mechanics for the maintenence & use many seized motor vehicles of Italian origin. These Italians followed the Leibstandarte in Ukraine, in November 1943, participating to the heavy combat against the Soviet formations.

In March of 1944 50-odd survivors accepted to re-enter in Italy for be assigned to Italian Legion SS. These veterans from the Russian front of the LAH had the privilege to continue to carry the black collar tabs with the double one rune of the SS, with the exception of the other members of the Italian SS that had the red mostrine.
This account basically jibes with Ostuf Charlemagne's version. However, the "These veterans from the Russian front of the LAH had the privilege to continue to carry the black collar tabs with the double one rune of the SS" doesn't seem to square with RFSS Himmler's May 1944 order permitting the surviving members of the Debica and Ventetta battalions, fresh from the Anzio front, to wear the black collar tab SS runes. Unless the Debica and Ventetta battalions contained the aforementioned Italian LSSAH survivors. I'll see what I can dig up giving Sentire - Pensare - Volere a closer read.

Note that there is documented, photographic evidence to prove that members of the Vendetta battalion wore an odd yoke-&-three-arrows collar tab (it looks very similar to the Spanish falangist symbol). The patch was based on the "Antroposofia" movement - a quasi-occult fascist pesudo-philosophy taught at Wewelsburg Castle. The three arrows represented "Wollen-Wissen-Konnen" (will, knowledge, and action) united by the yoke. There's a famous photo of the aforementioned Pio Filippani-Ronconi wearing it.

Ostuf Charlemagne continues
One of them was unterscharfuehrer Giuseppe Medda,who will lost his leg in a communist explosive attempt against the Pinerolo Quarters where an SS italian batallion was stationned ,in september 1944.
I briefly looked in Sentire - Pensare - Volere and couldn't find any mention of a Giuseppe Medda. Pinerolo was the location for the HQ of the Italian SS since October 1943. Perhaps other forum members may be able to research more details about Medda's service record and if there is any documentation that supports the theory that he briefly served in the LSSAH.

Interestingly enough, Sentire - Pensare - Volere, which IMO is the best and most comprehensive book on the Italian SS, does not mention 300 Italians serving in the LSSAH. Here's what it does say: (my apologies in advance for my rusty Italian and hurried translation)

p20-21
"...Himmler's intention was to entrust (SS-rank) Sepp Dietrich, already commander of the LSSAH (sic - Dietrich assumed command of the I SS Panzer Corps in July 1943 - rob), to supervise? (sovrintendere) the recruitment of all the Italian volunteers that presented themselves in the center of the South Tyrol and organize their transfer to the SS barracks at Monaco. The order was quickly rescinded and Dietrich's trip to Bolzano was cancelled. According to a report by a Major Lüdicke, OKW special representative, there weren't any Italian soldiers near the South Tyrol recruitment centers because among those who desired to join German units was the fear of violating Italian law and of being incriminated and arrested.


p22.

"...Notwithstanding the armistice announcement, individual civilians and soldiers, and in some cases entire units, presented themselves to the Germans. asking to continue fighting on the side of the Third Reich. Many of them were incorporated into German units; others became part of auxiliary formations under German direct tactical control. It is calculated that, between the rescue of Mussolini and the installment of the RSI government, 50,000 Italians were in arms alongside the Germans. Among those that were incorporated into German units, and in particular W-SS formations, they (followed their choice?) to the end of the conflict, fighting on all European fronts; the major part of these first volunteers were incorporated into the RSI armed forces. Among the thousands of Italians who remained faithful to the alliance with the Third Reich, a part coalesed into the Milizia Armada, the embryo of that which would become the Italian SS Legion."


So nothing specific about Italian volunteers in the LSSAH; perhaps other forum members could try to dig up some documented references in some of the LSSAH divisional histories. Until we can find additional documentation, I'd say that its likely, but not proven, that Italians served as hiwis in the LSSAH.

I will add additional information in subsequent posts. - Rob

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Bergmolch
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Re: Deeper investigation into Italians in the W-SS

#89

Post by Bergmolch » 10 Jul 2008, 13:52

Hi Rob,

As far as I remember in Italy the voices always spoke about severals 100s Italians in the LSSAH but actually I don't know the source.

Anyway, I know a guy, of who I saw the old pictures and the Deutsche Dientstelle confirming papers, that was actually in the LSSAH as SS-Sturmmann and not as HiWi (he wasn't a mechanic at all..) since he was employed as Panzer-Grenadier in Russia and during the Ardennes offensive he lost a foot.
As far as I remember the guy was a Battaglioni M member in Albania: wounded was sent back by boat, arrived in Italy just after the 8 September and found the chaos in the streets.
Back in Milan he stopped a LAH patrolling car showing his Battaglione M identity documents: the SS picked him up and after 4 hours he was fully dressed with feldgrau pants, tropical shirt and schiffen with SS insignas.
He was sent straight away to Ukraine throu Slovenia, where they got few clashes with the partisans during the trip.

Actually if Im not wrong he is working about his biography in german and italian.

Nava\Corbatti "Karstjager!", page 47, note 5 (Roughly and quickly translated)
"Several young Friulans and Istrians (North-East of actual Italy and North-West of Croatia, at the time Italy and later on Deutsches Reich as OZAK) joined the LSSAH units after 8 september 1943 operating againts Tito's bandits. The SS, (.....) allowed these volunteers first as HiWis and later on as proper fighting members. (....)The Oscha Giuseppe Benedetti (probably not Istrian nor Friulan but from the italian peninsula, my suggestion!), was awarded with EK II Kl. for the fightings next to Schitomir during the winter 43-44. Badly wounded he was sent to the Italian SS Legion as trainer."

Cheers
T

PhD about Italian Waffen SS
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PhD on Italian volunteers in the Waffen SS

#90

Post by PhD about Italian Waffen SS » 20 Jul 2009, 12:30

Hi,

I am doing a PhD on Italian volunteers in the Waffen SS (also South Tirol volunteers). I am trying to contact volunteers or their family circle. The idea is to spend time with them to collect their memories and to understand why they decided to volunteer in the Waffen. The research is very difficult and I will appreciate the help of persons writing in this forum. Everithing could be useful: names and surnames of these volunteers, organization charts, birthplaces, divisions where italians were fighting, pictures, addresses to contact volunteers or families etc.
I hope someone could help me posting information in the forum or at my private mail: [email protected]
Thanks in advance for your help
Nicola

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