Polish SS volunteers

Discussions on the foreigners (volunteers as well as conscripts) fighting in the German Wehrmacht, those collaborating with the Axis and other period Far Right organizations. Hosted by George Lepre.
Davey Boy
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#16

Post by Davey Boy » 20 Mar 2002, 20:14

Matt,

Likely? That's a very poor argument. Why would Poles join the SS? Do you have some facts handy, or are you just guessing here? I think the latter.

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Angelo
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Poles in the S.S. ?

#17

Post by Angelo » 22 Mar 2002, 12:48

Given that history is based on documentable facts, none of them, up to this moment, confirmed the presence of Poles servicing in any S.S. formation.
As to the likeness, I would regard it as very poor for two reasons:

1. The documented hostility of the Poles against a regime and a military occupation that meant to destroy their whole intelligentsia and turn the rest of the people into mere slaves. (They started doing it since the very first days after they invaded Poland, so they didn't leave any reasonable doubt to any Polish citizen about their intention to reach that goal.)

2. Even though, compelled by circumstances, the Germans allowed for the recruiting of soldiers belonging to ethnicities which had been labelled at least as "inferior" in their ladder of "Top-Of-The-World Race Contest", it is plausible to believe, in my opinion, that they wouldn't have gathered more than a handful of Polish citizens willing to join. And even so, I'd be inclined to think they would eventually belong to Ruthenians and Galicians which, as known, were made up of White Russians and Ukrainians.

Angelo


Matt
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Poles in SS

#18

Post by Matt » 22 Mar 2002, 14:18

I would have said that there was also no likely-hood of any Australian's serving in the SS, however 3 volunteered from POW camps.
That is why I think that is very likely that from the over 200,000 Poles who served in the Wehrmacht some would have volunteered for the SS - even if it was only a handfull of renegades.
When I get some time I will do some searching & see if I can find something concrete.
I am not trying to denegrate Poles, just pointing out that every nation has it's share of individuals who will go against the grain.

Matt

Matt
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Poles in SS

#19

Post by Matt » 22 Mar 2002, 14:54

From Feldgrau.com


"Initial milita groups and the Selbschutz

The first such instance of ethnic German Volksdeutsche from Poland being formed into units to support Germany was in September of 1939 with the attack on Poland. Upon the entrance of German troops into the regions of Western Poland, small groups of Volksdeutsche came together and formed local milita groups. These Volksdeutsche milita aided the German attack in many areas, and became so useful that shortly after the German Invasion, between September 8th and 10th, it was decided to reorganize the milita groups into Self-Protection units, otherwise known as Selbschutz. The Selbschutz was therefore formed in the early days of the German attack on Poland from ethnic German-Poles between the ages of 17-45 in the regions of Western Poland. The Selbschutz came under the control of the SS, being organized into three regions known as Südlicher Bereich, Mittlerer Bereich and Nördlicher Bereich. Each region was itself divided into districts known as Kreise, and each Kreise into a locality or Ort. The southern and central regions came under the direct control of the SS-Hauptamt, while the northern region came under the control of the RSHA. As September 1939 came to an end, the Selbschutz was reorganized and came under the operational control of Ordungspolizei or Order Police. Throughout its existance, the Selbschutz was entrusted with various rear-area security and support operations, and in many cases earned for itself an infamous reputation - so much so that it was therefore requested that the Selbschutz be disbanded. An order was later placed directing that the Selbschutz be disbanded as of November 8th, 1939, with effect from the 30th of November, 1939. A select few units of the Selbschutz would go on to serve until April of 1940 when all unit were finally and permanently disbanded. It is thought that a total of 45,000 ethnic German-Poles served in the Selbschutz before it was ordered to be disbanded."

"Although they are not technically thought of as Poles by the Germans, the ethnic German Volksdeutsche were in reality from Poland and can thus be seen as Polish volunteers"

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Angelo
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Poles in the WH and S.S.

#20

Post by Angelo » 22 Mar 2002, 15:26

I knew that the Germans recruited only "Volksdeutsche" (Ethnic Germans)in the Poland/General Government territory, except for a a small number of Ruthenians (White Russians) and Galicians (western Ukrainians).

In my opinion, an ethnic national should be considered on the basis of his original ethnicity, regardless of where he lives or dies unless, due to either the time passed, or his own will, he renounced "de facto" to consider himself still tied up to his original ancestry. That surely wasn't the case of the "Volksdeutsche".

Example: we have fellow Italians in Argentina (more than 7.000.000) who speak Italian (besides Spanish of course) and who, even though naturalized as Argentinians, keep on regarding themselves as Italians.
I admit that basing on official papers they can be considered as Argentinians, but when analizing their behavior, traditions etc. an Argentinian himself (whether of Spanish, mixed, or pure local descent) would feel more than embarassed to consider them Argentinians.

Supposing the day came when Argentina was occupied by the military forces of a neighboring state and a number of these "Italiani all'Estero" (=Italians abroad) should join the occupant's forces, the first ones to reject any Argentinian participation in such an happening would be the real original Argentinians whether of Spanish, mixed or pure local descent.

Regardless of what I just said, I agree with you that each nation has its own number of individuals who feel like going upstream in some cases.

Angelo
Last edited by Angelo on 24 Mar 2002, 03:20, edited 1 time in total.

Oswald Mosley
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#21

Post by Oswald Mosley » 23 Mar 2002, 01:35

Angelo,

Very interesting point. I also agree with your fundamental concept. There are around 2 million people in the UK of South Asian origin; they do not consider themselves British and are generally not considered as properly British by the majority of the natives. The traditions, culture, habits, language and mentality of the Asians are utterly different from those of the native British people - no amount of politically correct lecturing will convince me otherwise. At least the Italians in Argentina are in many ways compatible to the Spanish.

Anyway, getting back to the original argument, it's true that many Volksdeutsche from Poland joined the SS, but then many of these Volksdeutsche were also fluent Polish speakers and often married to Poles. So it's fair to say that they were both Polish and German.

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Angelo
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Poles in the WH and SS

#22

Post by Angelo » 24 Mar 2002, 03:24

Ok, Oswald, I'll settle for your 50/50 bid, it sounds good. :)

Angelo

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Starinov
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#23

Post by Starinov » 02 May 2002, 17:34

Well, I must disagree with Mosley and Angelo. Even if those guys were born in Poland before the war and were considered Poles on August 30 1939, they changed nationality when Germans invaded Poland. The Volksdeutche status claused that if a Pole wanted to become a German he must had have german origin (blood) anr resign from his polish citizenship... Since Poles were considred "subhuman" Volksdeutche could not be part of a master and Slave race at the same time.

Hannibal
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Re: "General Anders"

#24

Post by Hannibal » 02 May 2002, 20:16

HETMAN wrote:
I know that Poles served in the Wehrmacht. Up to 250,000 did.
Where did you read that? I read that when WH wanted to create a Polish regiment, less than 100 men joined it and that was all.

BTW: I am a Pole (I am not proud of this, however) - so do not tell me that I am not well-informed about it [Poland] (I do learn history at school :)).

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Starinov
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Re: "General Anders"

#25

Post by Starinov » 02 May 2002, 20:23

[quote="HannibalI am a Pole (I am not proud of this, however) - so do not tell me that I am not well-informed about it [Poland] (I do learn history at school :)).[/quote]

what do yoy mean by that....?

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Bjørn from Norway
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#26

Post by Bjørn from Norway » 02 May 2002, 20:26

Hello!
I have not encountered Poles in the SS, but there surely were other ways in collaborating. For instance, the infamous "Trawniki men", educated in Camp Trawniki (Lublin). Several Poles served in KZs, including Auchwitz.

The "Trawniki" men (one batallion), aside Polish police were there during the destruction of the Warzaw ghettos. Stroop mentions 4 officers and 263 men.

1500 Trawniki men followed the Wehrmacht during the withdrawal.

B.

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Starinov
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#27

Post by Starinov » 02 May 2002, 20:56

Are they pure Poles or Volksdeutche? Do you know? And do you have some more info about them?

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Benoit Douville
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#28

Post by Benoit Douville » 03 May 2002, 00:30

It's funny how an old thread get back on top. So you learn history at school, the Russian propaganda who tell you that the invasion of Poland on september 17 1939 was an humanitarian act! What lot of crap... Why are you not proud to be from Polska?

Hannibal
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#29

Post by Hannibal » 03 May 2002, 11:28

Starinov:

If people from other country write something about Poland in WW2, Poles usually reply: "What do you know? You are just a stupid Englishman/Amercian/French/etc."

I just didn't want to be treated that way.

Benoit:

And about being a Pole - what should I be proud of? Do you see any positives in the last 200 years of my country's history?

BTW: can you answer my last question (about Poles in WH) ?

Xanthro
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#30

Post by Xanthro » 03 May 2002, 19:29

Yes Poles "served" in the SS during the war. I have direct second hand information on this.

I have a Latvian friend who "served" in the Luftwaffe from 1944 onwards. He joined the Luftwaffe to keep from serving in the Waffen SS. A number of captured blond Latvian, Poles, Lithuianians and Estonian were being forced into the Waffen SS at the time. Ilmars (my friend), knew a number of Poles who ended up in the Waffen SS.

He doesn't know what happened to them after that. Based on his experience in the Luftwaffe, they probably weren't real soldiers. Ilmars was used as a driver, and he was basically under arrest the entire time. He was never left alone, never issued a firearm and never underwent any real training. He escaped in May 1945 and surrendered to the Americans.

I don't know if people will count conscripted support personell as being actuall SS members, but they would be in uniform.

I would also think a small number of Poles would join because a small number of every ethincity did.

Xanthro

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