Spanish volunteers 1941-1945

Discussions on the foreigners (volunteers as well as conscripts) fighting in the German Wehrmacht, those collaborating with the Axis and other period Far Right organizations. Hosted by George Lepre.
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truthfinding
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Re: Blue Division, a German or Spanish unit?

#376

Post by truthfinding » 26 May 2012, 17:33

Ironmachine wrote:
According to Willaim Sherir's book, the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, the German High Command listed the Blue Division as an "allied" division among Romanian, Hungarian, Italian and Slovak divisions.
And in Spain it was never considered as a unit of the Spanish Army. Furthermore, there were significant differences with those Romanian, Hungarian, Italian and Slovak units. The 250th Division was paid by the Germans, had the same structure than the German divisions, was equipped by the Germans and was fully integrated in the German chain-of-command. Of course it was not a standard German unit, but it was neither a standard "allied" division. However, it would have been too much to creat a new category for just one division and so it was considered an "allied" division, but it was something different.
Furthermore, the Spanish government obviously had the final control over the division as it finally withdrew the division from Soviet Union.
Well, the Spanish government had the final control over the supply of replacements, but if the Germans had decided not to withdrew the division there was nothing that could have been done by Spain. Now, in such a case it is very probable that the volunteers had just decided to stop fighting , which would have been the same as the withdrawal of the division in practical terms, but their oath prevented that at least theoretically. Anyway, it is not true that the Spanish government had the final control over the division; it did not have it in theory nor in practice.

So, is it safe to say, that the Blue Division was a Spanish unit allied to Germany in nature ( per German High Command's clacification), and a "German" unit only on facade to nominally avoid Spanish involvement in ww2?
This is just a matter of opinion, but I would say that the 250th Infantry Division was a German unit in nature with some (important) peculiarities.
I agree that the Blue Division is a special case. It was different from standard German divisions, and it was not exactly the same as Romanian/Hungarian/Italian/Slovak divisions.

But, the German High Command had the options of either listing it as a German division, or as an "Allied" division, and they went with the latter. If the German High Command said it was allied, then how can people say it was not? The German High Command surely held the authority to determine whether a unit was theirs or their ally's.

The Spanish government withdrew the division, for this, they held talks with the Germans. But the Spanish had the final say, and the division was withdrown as they asked. Had the Blue division been a German division, how could a foreign government withdrew a German division?

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Re: Blue Division, a German or Spanish unit?

#377

Post by truthfinding » 26 May 2012, 18:06

To summarize, my opinion is that:

1st, the Blue was a special case, not exactly the same as German-organized volunteer divisions(in fact, it was raised by the Spanish government on Spanish soil), also not exactly the same as other Axis divisions(Romanian, Hungarian etc.).

2nd, it was somewhere in the middle, but leaning more to being allied than volunteer, and that's why the German High Command considered it an allied unit.

3rd, since the German High Command had the ultimate authority over whether a unit belong to itself or to an ally, it is more objective to follow the German High Command's opinion and consider this division a Spanish division allied to Germany, with important peculiarities.


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Re: Blue Division, a German or Spanish unit?

#378

Post by Ironmachine » 26 May 2012, 18:45

But, the German High Command had the options of either listing it as a German division, or as an "Allied" division, and they went with the latter. If the German High Command said it was allied, then how can people say it was not? The German High Command surely held the authority to determine whether a unit was theirs or their ally's.
Perhaps because the German High Command is not the ultimate authority in unit classification? Simply because the Germans classified it as that, it doesn't make it correct. Let's look at it that way: if the Spanish government did not consider the division as a Spanish unit, then how can people say it was? The Spanish goverment surely held the authority to determine whether a unit was theirs or not... :)
The Spanish government withdrew the division, for this, they held talks with the Germans. But the Spanish had the final say, and the division was withdrown as they asked. Had the Blue division been a German division, how could a foreign government withdrew a German division?
Had the division been a Spanish division, the Spanish government would have had no need to talk with the Germans. The Spanish did not have the final say, they have to reach an agreement with the Germans.

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Re: Blue Division, a German or Spanish unit?

#379

Post by Ironmachine » 26 May 2012, 18:51

To summarize, my opinion is that:
It's good to remember that this is just a matter of opinion...
1st, the Blue was a special case, not exactly the same as German-organized volunteer divisions(in fact, it was raised by the Spanish government on Spanish soil), also not exactly the same as other Axis divisions(Romanian, Hungarian etc.).
It is not exactly that the unit was raised by the Spanish government on Spanish soil. The men of the division were recruited in Spain, and organized into a unit to reach Germany. But the division as we know it and was later employed was organized, trained and equipped in Germany.
2nd, it was somewhere in the middle, but leaning more to being allied than volunteer, and that's why the German High Command considered it an allied unit.
I would say that leaning much more to being volunteer than allied.

3rd, since the German High Command had the ultimate authority over whether a unit belong to itself or to an ally, it is more objective to follow the German High Command's opinion and consider this division a Spanish division allied to Germany, with important peculiarities.
Funny, I thouth that since the Spanish goverment, or the Spanish High Command, or the Spanish Army, had the ultimate authority over whether a unit belong to itself or not, it is more objective to follow the Spanish opinion and consider this a German division made up of Spanish volunteers, with the peculiarities inherent to such condition.

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Re: Blue Division, a German or Spanish unit?

#380

Post by truthfinding » 26 May 2012, 19:10

Ironmachine wrote:
But, the German High Command had the options of either listing it as a German division, or as an "Allied" division, and they went with the latter. If the German High Command said it was allied, then how can people say it was not? The German High Command surely held the authority to determine whether a unit was theirs or their ally's.
Perhaps because the German High Command is not the ultimate authority in unit classification? Simply because the Germans classified it as that, it doesn't make it correct. Let's look at it that way: if the Spanish government did not consider the division as a Spanish unit, then how can people say it was? The Spanish goverment surely held the authority to determine whether a unit was theirs or not... :)
The Spanish government withdrew the division, for this, they held talks with the Germans. But the Spanish had the final say, and the division was withdrown as they asked. Had the Blue division been a German division, how could a foreign government withdrew a German division?
Had the division been a Spanish division, the Spanish government would have had no need to talk with the Germans. The Spanish did not have the final say, they have to reach an agreement with the Germans.

The answers are quite simple:

1st, we are talking about whether the Blue was a German unit or a Spanish unit. The German High Command was the command organization of German military, it held the authority over whether a unit belonged to ITSELF, just like I know which house belongs to me and which house belongs to my friend. If the German High Command could not even tell which units were of their own, maybe they would have ended up commanding Red Army divisions against Normandy landing :D

On the other hand, the Spanish government had enough motivation to hide the true identity of the unit and maintain a facade. It did not want to openly side with Germany like Romania, Hungaria etc, while wanted to fight the Soviet Union.

For comparison, we all know that China was involved in Korea war, right? Then, the official name for the Chinese units in Korea was China People's Volunteer Army, nominally a volunteer force, not Chinese government force. Facades were used by governments to avoid certain issues, for example direct open involvement.

2nd, the Spanish had the need to talk with Germans before withdrawl. The Blue was on an active battlefront, could it simply be withdrawn without consulting with ally, leaving a gap/hole for the enemy? Could it simply take any means of transport and go back from Russia all the way back to Spain? Could it go through all the friendly garrisons along the way without notifying them that they were coming? No. Any withdrawl had to be discussed with ally and conducted with a careful schedule, or it would be a disaster for both itself and its ally.
Last edited by truthfinding on 26 May 2012, 19:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Blue Division, a German or Spanish unit?

#381

Post by truthfinding » 26 May 2012, 19:15

It's good to remember that this is just a matter of opinion...

It is not exactly that the unit was raised by the Spanish government on Spanish soil. The men of the division were recruited in Spain, and organized into a unit to reach Germany. But the division as we know it and was later employed was organized, trained and equipped in Germany.

I would say that leaning much more to being volunteer than allied.

Funny, I thouth that since the Spanish goverment, or the Spanish High Command, or the Spanish Army, had the ultimate authority over whether a unit belong to itself or not, it is more objective to follow the Spanish opinion and consider this a German division made up of Spanish volunteers, with the peculiarities inherent to such condition.
1st, yes this is my opinion, and the German High Command's opinion as well.

2nd, the Spanish government organized the division, sent it to Germany to be trained/equipped. Correct.
Further, after the overthrow of Saddam Hussein's regime in Iraq, the new Iraqi army was also raised in the name of the Iraqi government while being trained, equipped etc. by the USA and other international forces. As did the new Afghan army.

3rd, leaning more on allied, as the German High Command said so.

4th, Spanish government had the motivation to cover the true nature of the division, as explained in my last post.

PS. regarding the different opinions by German High Command and Spanish government, let's see:

For the Germans, they did not have motivation to deliberately label a German unit as an allied unit, and it would be highly unlikely that they did not know what unit belonged to whom. Being ally means the Germans would not have absolute control over the unit, which is not in their best interest. Thus, the Germans said the truth.

For the Spanish government, it had the motivation to deliberately label its unit fighting Allies as a German unit on facade, so that it fought the Soviet Union while avoiding directly allying with Germany or getting involved in WW2. This motivation was further strengthened after the losing of WW2 by the Axis, when the Allies prevailed and the Spanish government had the urgent need to distant itself from the defeated Axis to avoid Allied actions against it. Thus, the Spanish government maintained a facade and covered up the true nature of the unit.

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Re: Blue Division, a German or Spanish unit?

#382

Post by Ironmachine » 26 May 2012, 19:41

1st, we are talking about whether the Blue was a German unit or a Spanish unit. The German High Command was the command organization of German military, it held the authority over whether a unit belonged to ITSELF,
And the Spanish government held the authority over whether a unit belonged to ITSELF.
just like I know which house belongs to me and which house belongs to my friend.
You may know or not, but the simple fact that you claim that a house belongs to you (or not) does not make that house your property (or not). :wink:
If the German High Command could not even tell which units were of their own, maybe they would have ended up commanding Red Army divisions against Normandy landing
Well, in that case why did the German Army paid for, trained, equipped and commanded a division that the German Hight Comand considered that was not theirs?
On the other hand, the Spanish government had enough motivation to hide the true identity of the unit and maintain a facade. It did not want to openly side with Germany like Romania, Hungaria etc, while wanted to fight the Soviet Union.
That's simply an opinion. On the other hand, ofr someone wanting to maintain a facade, they publishised almost every detail of the division.
2nd, the Spanish had the need to talk with Germans before withdrawl. The Blue was on an active battlefront, could it simply be withdrawn without consulting with ally, leaving a gap/hole for the enemy? Could it simply take any means of transport and go back from Russia all the way back to Spain? Could it go through all the friendly garrisons along the way without notifying them that they were coming? No. Any withdrawl had to be discussed with ally and conducted with a careful schedule, or it would be a disaster for both itself and its ally.
You are missing the point, which was whether the Spanish did have (or not) the final say on division's matter. It is one thing having to organize a withdrawal, even German units would have had to do it in an organized way. It is another thing to need the German approval for the withdrawal, which was the case.

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Re: Blue Division, a German or Spanish unit?

#383

Post by Ironmachine » 26 May 2012, 19:58

1st, yes this is my opinion, and the German High Command's opinion as well.
Well, then my opinion is different, and the Spanish goverment's opinion as well.
For the Germans, they did not have motivation to deliberately label a German unit as an allied unit, and it would be highly unlikely that they did not know what unit belonged to whom. Being ally means the Germans would not have absolute control over the unit, which is not in their best interest. Thus, the Germans said the truth.
It seems that the Germans have the motivation to number, equip and command the 250th Infantry Division as a German unit. The fact is that operationally the Germans had absolute control over the unit. Thus, the Germans can say what they want, but it was not a Spanish unit.
For the Spanish government, it had the motivation to deliberately label its unit fighting Allies as a German unit on facade, so that it fought the Soviet Union while avoiding directly allying with Germany or getting involved in WW2. This motivation was further strengthened after the losing of WW2 by the Axis, when the Allies prevailed and the Spanish government had the urgent need to distant itself from the defeated Axis to avoid Allied actions against it. Thus, the Spanish government maintained a facade and covered up the true nature of the unit.
The true nature of the unit was that it was a division paid, trained and equipped by the Germans, made up of Spaniards who made an oath of obedience to the Fuhrer as supreme commander of the Wehrmacht in the battle against Communism. In Spanish the oath was: "¿Juráis ante Dios y por vuestro honor de españoles absoluta obediencia al jefe supremo del ejército alemán, Adolf Hitler, en su lucha contra el bolchevismo y que combatiréis como valientes soldados dispuestos a dar vuestra vida en cada momento por cumplir este juramento?" No reference to Spain, Franco or the Spanish Army. It was clearly not a "Spanish" unit, even if it could not be considered a standard German unit, and Spain had little if any direct control over a unit that had made such oath beyond what the Germans allowed.

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Re: Blue Division, a German or Spanish unit?

#384

Post by truthfinding » 27 May 2012, 01:02

And the Spanish government held the authority over whether a unit belonged to ITSELF.

You may know or not, but the simple fact that you claim that a house belongs to you (or not) does not make that house your property (or not). :wink:

Well, in that case why did the German Army paid for, trained, equipped and commanded a division that the German Hight Comand considered that was not theirs?

That's simply an opinion. On the other hand, ofr someone wanting to maintain a facade, they publishised almost every detail of the division.

You are missing the point, which was whether the Spanish did have (or not) the final say on division's matter. It is one thing having to organize a withdrawal, even German units would have had to do it in an organized way. It is another thing to need the German approval for the withdrawal, which was the case.
1st, yes, the Spanish government had the authority, unless it wanted to deliberately cover up that authority.

2nd, does it make any sense that the Germans claimed a German unit to be the unit of an ally? It was not shown in propoganda or whatsoever, but shown in the plans made by Germans for summer offensive against the Soviet Union. Would the Germans lied to themselves when making their plans for war? I think not!

3rd, because the Germans were arming an ally' unit. The Americans trained, equipped and paid for the Iraqi Security Forces and new Afghan National Army, to fight alongside themselves, would you say the ISF or the ANA is part of US military? Is there any law forbidding a country to train another friendly country's military so that they can fight together?

4th, but yours is also an opinion(regarding how to explain German High Command's classification). Publishing details are different from making general statement against ownership. Again the Chinese government published many details of CPVA, but officially the CPVA was still called a volunteer army, that's, not representing government behaviors.

5th, had the division been a German division like you said, would you explain to me how could a foreign government ask to withdraw a German unit from the hot battlefront against German interest? The Germans were harshly pressed by the Red Army and desperately needed any man power to help maintain the front. Besides, the Spanish government issued ORDERS for the division's withdrawl, could it have ordered a German division to leave their comrades and go back to Spain?
Last edited by truthfinding on 27 May 2012, 01:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Blue Division, a German or Spanish unit?

#385

Post by truthfinding » 27 May 2012, 01:04

Sorry double clicked... to be editted soon

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Re: Blue Division, a German or Spanish unit?

#386

Post by truthfinding » 27 May 2012, 01:20

Well, then my opinion is different, and the Spanish goverment's opinion as well.

It seems that the Germans have the motivation to number, equip and command the 250th Infantry Division as a German unit. The fact is that operationally the Germans had absolute control over the unit. Thus, the Germans can say what they want, but it was not a Spanish unit.

The true nature of the unit was that it was a division paid, trained and equipped by the Germans, made up of Spaniards who made an oath of obedience to the Fuhrer as supreme commander of the Wehrmacht in the battle against Communism. In Spanish the oath was: "¿Juráis ante Dios y por vuestro honor de españoles absoluta obediencia al jefe supremo del ejército alemán, Adolf Hitler, en su lucha contra el bolchevismo y que combatiréis como valientes soldados dispuestos a dar vuestra vida en cada momento por cumplir este juramento?" No reference to Spain, Franco or the Spanish Army. It was clearly not a "Spanish" unit, even if it could not be considered a standard German unit, and Spain had little if any direct control over a unit that had made such oath beyond what the Germans allowed.
1st, I think we need to assume that neither German High Command nor Spanish government was so stupid that they had difficulty telling which unit belonged to themselves and which unit not.

2nd, then one side must have been deliberately covering up the facts they held. Judging by motivations:
a. The Germans mentioned the Blue in their INTERNAL operation plans, not propoganda plans, thus they had no motivations to cheat themselves when making such plans.
b. The Germans had trained/equipped/paid for the Blue as an allied unit to fight alongside German military, just like the US military did the same to ISF and ANA.
c. It would impair German control over a German unit if the Germans deliberately labelled it as an allied unit, thus against their best interests. Further, it would again impair German military strength to withdraw a veteran fully equipped and trained German unit from a losing and increasingly outnumbered battlefront at the request of a foreign government, when Germans were so desperately needing soldiers. It would be again going against German interests.

So, the Germans had no motivation to cover up anything.

The Spanish government had several motivations to cover up the truth. First while it wanted to fight Soviet Union, it did not want to fight the Western Allies at the same time, which would be inevitable if Spain openly declared war on Soviets, given the precedent of Finland. Then later in the war when Axis defeat was becoming likely, and after the war, the Spanish government wanted to distant itself from the losing Axis, and thus they had the motivation to deny a Spanish unit was involved in the war against the Allies.

Thus, the Spanish government had strong motivations to cover up the facts.

As for the division's oath-taking, it was just part of the covering up, the same as the German title of 250th Infantry Division given to the division. The Spanish government was very keen to keep the facade.

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Re: Blue Division, a German or Spanish unit?

#387

Post by Ironmachine » 27 May 2012, 08:59

1st, yes, the Spanish government had the authority, unless it wanted to deliberately cover up that authority.
So you say. It is not true.
2nd, does it make any sense that the Germans claimed a German unit to be the unit of an ally? It was not shown in propoganda or whatsoever, but shown in the plans made by Germans for summer offensive against the Soviet Union. Would the Germans lied to themselves when making their plans for war? I think not!
You can think what you want. It does not make it true.
3rd, because the Germans were arming an ally' unit. The Americans trained, equipped and paid for the Iraqi Security Forces and new Afghan National Army, to fight alongside themselves, would you say the ISF or the ANA is part of US military? Is there any law forbidding a country to train another friendly country's military so that they can fight together?
This has nothing to do with the "Blue Division".
4th, but yours is also an opinion(regarding how to explain German High Command's classification).
Indeed, it is my opinion. I said that in my first post. We can go on going in circles if you want.
Publishing details are different from making general statement against ownership. Again the Chinese government published many details of CPVA, but officially the CPVA was still called a volunteer army, that's, not representing government behaviors.
Again, nothing to do with the "Blue Division".
5th, had the division been a German division like you said, would you explain to me how could a foreign government ask to withdraw a German unit from the hot battlefront against German interest? The Germans were harshly pressed by the Red Army and desperately needed any man power to help maintain the front.
The key concept here is "ask", instead of "order". See the diference?
Regarding why would the Germans agree, it easy to understand. While the division was "German" in the "practical" sense, its members were Spanish nationals. Spain could cut the supply of replacements, which in fact would have practically eliminated the division a few months later at most. And Germany obtained other advantages from a good relationship with Spain, which could be lost for the benefit of retaining a short-lived infantry division. Yes, the Germans were hard-pressed for men, but this was only 1 division in a front where there were about 186 divisions in October 1943. Risking badly needed trade with Spain for just the 0.54% of your strenght is something to consider seriously.
Besides, the Spanish government issued ORDERS for the division's withdrawl, could it have ordered a German division to leave their comrades and go back to Spain?
And the German government also issued orders for the division's withdrawal, could it have ordered a Spanish division anything?

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Re: Blue Division, a German or Spanish unit?

#388

Post by Ironmachine » 27 May 2012, 09:33

1st, I think we need to assume that neither German High Command nor Spanish government was so stupid that they had difficulty telling which unit belonged to themselves and which unit not.
Well, then as the German High Command did not consider the unit as German and the Spanish government did not consider it Spanish... it seems that the answer to your original question is: neither.
2nd, then one side must have been deliberately covering up the facts they held. Judging by motivations:
a. The Germans mentioned the Blue in their INTERNAL operation plans, not propoganda plans, thus they had no motivations to cheat themselves when making such plans.
Well, "motivations" are sometimes much feeble that you think. For example, it could well be that the German High Command did not consider Spaniards as worth of being part of the German Army. They could have considered the division as a mercenary unit, and as such unworthy of being considered on par with the rest of the German Army.
b. The Germans had trained/equipped/paid for the Blue as an allied unit to fight alongside German military, just like the US military did the same to ISF and ANA.
No, this is just your assumption. The Germans had trained/equipped/paid for the Blue to fight alongside German military. It was clearly not a "German" unit in the strictest sense, but it was part of the German Army, not like those Romanian, Italian, etc allied unit and not like those ISF and ANA that were not part of the U.S. Army.
c. It would impair German control over a German unit if the Germans deliberately labelled it as an allied unit, thus against their best interests.
Actually, labelling the 250th Infantry Division in any way would not impair its control by the Germans in any way. Actually treating it as they treated those allied divisions would, but that was not the case. Their best interest was to have complete control over the division when it was on operations, and that they had regardless of the labelling.
Further, it would again impair German military strength to withdraw a veteran fully equipped and trained German unit from a losing and increasingly outnumbered battlefront at the request of a foreign government, when Germans were so desperately needing soldiers. It would be again going against German interests.
Yes, the Germans needed soldiers, but they also needed raw materials. Then, it would again be going against German interest to enrage one of the few countries that still traded with them in 1943. It was a matter of what was more valuable, a infantry division or a exporting country.
So, the Germans had no motivation to cover up anything.
Neither had Spain. Come on, we are talking about a country that did not even try to maintain their appearance of neutrality.
The Spanish government had several motivations to cover up the truth. First while it wanted to fight Soviet Union,
Hardly. The Spanish government may have despised Communism, but their interest in fighting the Soviet Union was philosophical, not real.
it did not want to fight the Western Allies at the same time,
Actually, at the time the division was formed, Spain's interest was in fighting the Western Allies (Great Britain, that is). That was the only way to achieve all the territorial objectives that they wanted. Of course, there was no way they could do it, but we are talking about desires, not possibilities.
which would be inevitable if Spain openly declared war on Soviets, given the precedent of Finland.
Talking about Finland, it will be interesting to know how the German High Command labelled Finnish units, given that Finland was not an allied country, but a co-belligerent.
Then later in the war when Axis defeat was becoming likely, and after the war, the Spanish government wanted to distant itself from the losing Axis, and thus they had the motivation to deny a Spanish unit was involved in the war against the Allies.
But later in the war, it would have been too late to deny anything. And at the beginning, every detail of the division's activity was heavily publishised, hardly the best way to maintain a facade.
Thus, the Spanish government had strong motivations to cover up the facts.
We are talking about a country that did not maintain a facade of neutrality, but adopted a position of non-belligerence. But anyway, it really doesn't matter.
As for the division's oath-taking, it was just part of the covering up, the same as the German title of 250th Infantry Division given to the division.
Perhaps you have little regard for your oaths, but I can assure you that the Spanish and German military at that time were very aware of what they swore. No way this was a cover up, and in fact it was no need for it. It was made because everybody understood what they were: a unit of the German Army, if not a German unit.
The Spanish government was very keen to keep the facade.
Which should make you wonder why the Germans were kind enough to collaborate with all this play-acting. Seriously, this is Germany in the summer of 1941. They are the victorious overlords of Europe, they have no need for an additional infantry division, much less so one in which they have to invest precious equipment and training time of their own, and regarding allied units they had more than enough. Why would they collaborate to maintian this supposed "facade" for an infantry unit of dubious quality over which they would have no absolute control?

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Re: Blue Division, a German or Spanish unit?

#389

Post by truthfinding » 27 May 2012, 16:12

It seems our Spanish friend is not happy about the fact that his country used to be a Nazi war-time ally, which is understandable. Just wanna say, even when Franco Regime was allied to Nazis, it does not mean all the good people of Spain have to be seen as Nazi sympathizers, don't be so sensitive and/or emotional.

Anyway, the situation here is just this: (fact)the German High Command considered Spanish unit allied to them and not a unit of their own in their internal operation documents, (imo) in which they would have no reason to lie or fabricate. The Spanish government said otherwise(per your statement) both to (imo)avoid open hostility with western allies during the war and to distant itself from losing/defeated Axis during/after the war, thus buying itself room for survival in the post-ww2 anti-Nazi Europe.

So ends the infinite loop and circle if you like.

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Re: Blue Division, a German or Spanish unit?

#390

Post by Ironmachine » 27 May 2012, 17:42

It seems our Spanish friend is not happy about the fact that his country used to be a Nazi war-time ally, which is understandable.
It may be understandable, but you don't understand it. I'm very aware of the nature of the regime in power in Spain at the time, and I know very well which its position regarding Germany, the Allies and the war. I'm neither happy nor unhappy about it, it's history. The Spanish government supported Germany as much as they could short of entering the war on their side, and this has nothing to do with the "Blue Division" being a Spanish unit (which it wasn't) or a German one (which it was).
Just wanna say, even when Franco Regime was allied to Nazis,
Not really, there being a difference between being an an ally and what Spain did. Anyway, whether Spain was allied or not with Germany doesn't matter in relation to whether the "Blue Division" was a German unit (which it was) or a Spanish one (which it wasn't).
it does not mean all the good people of Spain have to be seen as Nazi sympathizers,
Obvious, but again unrelated to the true nature of the "Blue Division".
don't be so sensitive and/or emotional.
:roll:
And this forum (http://www.axishistory.com), or http://www.feldgrau.com, or http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de, or the many books that consider the division as a German unit and not a Spanish one are also sensitive and/or emotional?
Anyway, the situation here is just this: (fact)the German High Command considered Spanish unit allied to them and not a unit of their own in their internal operation documents,
And still they paid, trained, equipped, supplied and commanded the unit, and an oath was made by the men to Adolf Hitler as supreme commander of the Wehrmacht. If this was not enough to make the unit a German one in the eyes of the German High Command, it certainly should have been enough to make it not a Spanish one.
The Spanish government said otherwise(per your statement) both to (imo)avoid open hostility with western allies during the war
What a nonsense, given that the Spanish government openly recruited Spaniards in Spain for the division, fully supported it while at the front, publicished constantly its actions, and publicly celebrated the return of the veterans.
On the other hand Operation Barbarossa began on 22 June 1941 and Great Britain declared war on Finland, Hungary and Romania on 5 December 1941. Given that the Blue Division made his oath on 31 July 1941, when it seemed that fighting against the Soviet Union had not meant open hostility with the Western Allies for those other countries, it is not so evident that Spain would have considered that sending a single division to fight against the Soviet Union would have caused war with the Western Allies.
Anyway, it really doesn't matter, you are missing the point. We are not arguing about what the division was (and it was a unit of the German Army), not why it was so (be it to avoid war with the Western Allies or not).
and to distant itself from losing/defeated Axis during/after the war, thus buying itself room for survival in the post-ww2 anti-Nazi Europe.
As Spain never claimed the "Blue Division" to be a Spanish unit, not even when the Axis was victorious (instead of saying it and later, when the Axis was defeated, claiming it was not Spanish), this argument has no value at all.
So ends the infinite loop and circle if you like.
As you like it.

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