Ça suffit, les gars !
J'ai passé la plupart de ma vie a subir tous les mensonges immaginables, toutes les histoires inventés, toutes les extravagances des médias avec leurs fins ignobles... au sujet de mon père et des siens. Pourtant, mon père était un homme bien réfléchi, un intellectuel si vous voulez, un homme d'une très grande culture, d'un grand romantisme, un homme doux en dépit des apparences, et un très grand amoureux de la France. C'est loin de ce qu'on entend dire des miliciens depuis plus de soixantes ans. Vous êtes d'accord?
Comment voulez-vous qu'à un certain moment donné je ne puisse qu'avoir les mêmes réaction qu'avait eu le Christ dans le temple? Au fil des ans, la colère devient rage. Réfléchissez un peu et mettez-vous à ma place. Je ne suis pas jeune, vous le savez. Mais ill me semble que ce que j'ai pû vous écrire (je ne m'en souviens même plus, vous voyez !) était loin d'être une réaction aussi forte qu'elle aurait dû l'être. Comme le Maréchal, je hais les mensonges qui ont fait tant de mal. Je connais des hommes amoureux de la France -- oui, encore aujourd'hui agés de 85 ans et plus -- des vrais -- qui avaient à l'époque plus ou moins les mêmes convictions qu'avait Pierre Louis de La Ney du Vair. J'ai les ai cherché, je les ai trouvé et j'ai pour eux la plus haute estime.
Ce qui ne veut pas dire que vous sachiez mes propres convictions. Loin de là. Le gaulliste qui a écrit sur ce forum en disant qu'il n'était pas de mes idées n'en sait rien de mes idées, il fait l'erreur que l'on voit réapparaître si souvent, la présomption, et le manque de discipline. L'hitoire de l'occupation allemande en est bourré. Et pour en finir avec le général, il serait bien amusant de lire le petitbouquin de feu André Figueras du même titre. Et au cas où vous ne le sachiez pas, Figueras était dans la Résistance (un vrai).
La pire des erreurs c'est, vous êtes d'accord, d'écrire l'histoire en noir et blanc. Car, comme nous l'avait indiqué Henri Amouroux, on ne peut comprendre l'histoire de cette période de boue et de sang si on n'accepte pas la complexité. Mais on continue en noir et blanc, bien sûr, avec l'aide de cette détestable loi Gayssot que devrait faire hurler tous les chercheurs sérieux.
La Milice elle-même était d'une immense complexité. Bout-de-l'An de gauche, Darnand de la Cagoule en passant par l'Action Française. Des royalistes qui auraient voulu en finir avec une IIIe république qui -- de toute évidence -- avait trahi son peuple et avait été le vrai responsable de tout ce débâcle. Ensuite, il y avait quelques national-socialistes et même un communiste milicien, ah oui !. On ne peut à peine dire "La" Milice... car celle de la zone "nono" était tout à fait différente de celle du Nord de 1944, -- je parle de la Milice de cet homme à l'âme très haute qu'était Bassompierre,-- mais une Milice trop hâtivement rassemblée, sans véritable école des cadres tel Uriage, et contenant son lot de brébis galeuses, il faut le dire.
Je resterai encore un peu de temps sur ce forum -- voir s'il est sérieux-- au cas où il y ait des personnes qui cherchent à comprendre, qui voudraient me poser des questions auxquelles je répondrai le plus honnêtement possible sans jamais vous faire part de mes propres convictions, car cela ne regarde que moi.
For those of you who want to translate this probably useless little message, copy it and go to a website such as Babelfish. It'll give you the jist of the matter.
La Ney du Vair
Milice Francaise
Re: Et en voilà encore deux
Que Mr Du Vair veuille honorer le souvenir de son père ,rien que de trés respectable , Philippe Darnand l'a egalement fait pour le sienduVair wrote:Et en voilà encore deux qui me font des lessons sur la gentillesse et l'aggressivité.
Ça suffit, les gars !
J'ai passé la plupart de ma vie a subir tous les mensonges immaginables, toutes les histoires inventés, toutes les extravagances des médias avec leurs fins ignobles... au sujet de mon père et des siens. Pourtant, mon père était un homme bien réfléchi, un intellectuel si vous voulez, un homme d'une très grande culture, d'un grand romantisme, un homme doux en dépit des apparences, et un très grand amoureux de la France. C'est loin de ce qu'on entend dire des miliciens depuis plus de soixantes ans. Vous êtes d'accord?
Comment voulez-vous qu'à un certain moment donné je ne puisse qu'avoir les mêmes réaction qu'avait eu le Christ dans le temple? Au fil des ans, la colère devient rage. Réfléchissez un peu et mettez-vous à ma place. Je ne suis pas jeune, vous le savez. Mais ill me semble que ce que j'ai pû vous écrire (je ne m'en souviens même plus, vous voyez !) était loin d'être une réaction aussi forte qu'elle aurait dû l'être. Comme le Maréchal, je hais les mensonges qui ont fait tant de mal. Je connais des hommes amoureux de la France -- oui, encore aujourd'hui agés de 85 ans et plus -- des vrais -- qui avaient à l'époque plus ou moins les mêmes convictions qu'avait Pierre Louis de La Ney du Vair. J'ai les ai cherché, je les ai trouvé et j'ai pour eux la plus haute estime.
Ce qui ne veut pas dire que vous sachiez mes propres convictions. Loin de là. Le gaulliste qui a écrit sur ce forum en disant qu'il n'était pas de mes idées n'en sait rien de mes idées, il fait l'erreur que l'on voit réapparaître si souvent, la présomption, et le manque de discipline. L'hitoire de l'occupation allemande en est bourré. Et pour en finir avec le général, il serait bien amusant de lire le petitbouquin de feu André Figueras du même titre. Et au cas où vous ne le sachiez pas, Figueras était dans la Résistance (un vrai).
La pire des erreurs c'est, vous êtes d'accord, d'écrire l'histoire en noir et blanc. Car, comme nous l'avait indiqué Henri Amouroux, on ne peut comprendre l'histoire de cette période de boue et de sang si on n'accepte pas la complexité. Mais on continue en noir et blanc, bien sûr, avec l'aide de cette détestable loi Gayssot que devrait faire hurler tous les chercheurs sérieux.
La Milice elle-même était d'une immense complexité. Bout-de-l'An de gauche, Darnand de la Cagoule en passant par l'Action Française. Des royalistes qui auraient voulu en finir avec une IIIe république qui -- de toute évidence -- avait trahi son peuple et avait été le vrai responsable de tout ce débâcle. Ensuite, il y avait quelques national-socialistes et même un communiste milicien, ah oui !. On ne peut à peine dire "La" Milice... car celle de la zone "nono" était tout à fait différente de celle du Nord de 1944, -- je parle de la Milice de cet homme à l'âme très haute qu'était Bassompierre,-- mais une Milice trop hâtivement rassemblée, sans véritable école des cadres tel Uriage, et contenant son lot de brébis galeuses, il faut le dire.
Je resterai encore un peu de temps sur ce forum -- voir s'il est sérieux-- au cas où il y ait des personnes qui cherchent à comprendre, qui voudraient me poser des questions auxquelles je répondrai le plus honnêtement possible sans jamais vous faire part de mes propres convictions, car cela ne regarde que moi.
For those of you who want to translate this probably useless little message, copy it and go to a website such as Babelfish. It'll give you the jist of the matter.
La Ney du Vair
Qu'il cherche à rehabiliter la Milice et des miliciens ........il en va autrement .
La milice , cet avatar de la Révolution Nationale a laissé dans la memoire de la nation une marque et un souvenir tellement odieux et meprisable que le rappel de" ses hauts faits et de ses heros" parait ,pour le moins inconvenant ......La Resistance,elle, avait quand meme une autre gueule !!
Reverer la grandeur d'ame du Bassompierre de la SS ,des Glières , de la Santé ?
Ces heros , Mr Du Vair .......des rescapés de la sanglante Milice ,des mercenaires qui ont combattu avec l'ennemi qui ont juré allegeance au Fuhrer et qui ont choisi de mourir pour L'Allemagne nazie mais pas pour la France
Re: Et en voilà encore deux
[quote="lavella"][quote="duVair"]Et en voilà encore deux qui me font des lessons sur la gentillesse et l'aggressivité.
Rough translation of my above quote
Mr Du Vair wants to honour the memory of his father ,that’s respectable
Philippe Darnand did the same for his father’s
But if he wants to restore Milice and milicians good name ....that’s quite different
Milice and milicians ,that avatar of Petain ‘s Revolution Nationale let in french memory such a hateful and contemptible print .......trying to restore it would be insulting for the picture of Resistance
To revere highmindedness of SS Bassompierre ,famous through Les Glières et la Santé ?
Should we consider as heroes , Mr Du Vair , those remnants of infamous Milice who fought alongside with France enemies ,who swore allegiance to the fuhrer and who chose to die for Nazi Germany .....but not for France
Lavella
Rough translation of my above quote
Mr Du Vair wants to honour the memory of his father ,that’s respectable
Philippe Darnand did the same for his father’s
But if he wants to restore Milice and milicians good name ....that’s quite different
Milice and milicians ,that avatar of Petain ‘s Revolution Nationale let in french memory such a hateful and contemptible print .......trying to restore it would be insulting for the picture of Resistance
To revere highmindedness of SS Bassompierre ,famous through Les Glières et la Santé ?
Should we consider as heroes , Mr Du Vair , those remnants of infamous Milice who fought alongside with France enemies ,who swore allegiance to the fuhrer and who chose to die for Nazi Germany .....but not for France
Lavella
I was adressed in French, I replied in French. Courtesy ! That's what you preach, isn't it? As I mentioned in my French message, to translate go to http://babelfish.altavista.com/tr It's not that difficult, folks.
As for the person who replied with the same old hyperbola we've heard for 60 year, I can only say that this person must have been born well after the war, subjected, as I mentioned to up to 60 years of incredible vilification of everything that had to do with the French government under the occupation, and specifically the Milice française, made to be the black sheep of the régime. Yes, there were crimes comitted by certain members of the Milice and those are to be condemned. But let's try to understand... we were in a civil war in 1943 and 1944. Is there anything worse than a civil war? Let's talk about crimes committed by the Resistance... how about the Jourdan family in Isère, massacred from the baby to the grandparents? Remember Voiron? There were many others. How about those who dressed in uniforms made to look like that of the Milice to commit their crimes and lay the blame on the Milice? To the extent that Vichy had to distribute pictures of what the uniform REALLY looked like. The Milice belonged to the ministry responsible for law and order. A ministry of the legal French government, recognized as such by all the major nations of the world (Ask Admiral Leahy). The Milice's initial mission was the struggle against the black market which was out of control. It also came to the assistance of the victims of allied bombing in France...which caused far more deaths than did the Germans in the French population. See: VALLA, Jean-Claude, La France sous les bombes américaines, Les cahiers libre d’Histoire No. 7, Paris, 2002. And should I mention the 10,000 French men and women assassinated by members of the Resistance and their illegal 1-minute courts at the time of the liberation... l'Épuration sauvage... want to see pictures? The real documents? Menthon got even for the little bath du Vair gave him? He was minister of Justice under de Gaulle at the time.
The Milice at the time of du Vair was unarmed. Seventy members of the Milice were assassinated before Darnand, in desperation and facing the loss of his men, called for reprisals. No reasonable person condones this, but it can be understood in the context of the times. The Milice's prime enemy was Communism. The best of the French resistance was Communist with a single goal, to take control of France at the end of the war. Who started this civil war? The answer is LONDON. Just go look up what men such as Maurice Schumann screamed on the airwaves... "Kill those men of the Milice, kill them like dogs!" Furthermore, London radio gaves openly the names of men of the Milice to assassinate.
As to collaboration, let's be realistic. The Iraqis are now largely cooperating with US occupation forces. Why? No choice, the population has to eat, has to work. Same thing in France. Example: Factories such as Renault gave jobs to the population. But it's production for Germany was limited by the French government to the manufacture of trucks, not weapons. Collaboration was inevitable but Pétain never helped the German war effort, even after Perfidious Albion (U.K.) attacked the French fleet (in the process of being disarmed) at Mers-el-Kébir and Dakar only a month after the British retreat at Dunkirk and the fall of France -- killing 1200 sailors and that after having all the garantees that France would not allow possession of its magnificent fleet by any country. If fact, France sank its own fleet at Toulon to prevent the Germans from laying hands on it subsequent to the allied landing in French North Africa. Just another little question for my "black and white" correspondent (who did not live the war as I did): De Gaulle disobeyed military orders and took off in Spears' airplane to London. That is a crime. What if all French leaders had done that? And what if de Gaulle had been selected as French Head of State instead of Pétain? Churchill put up with that rascal but also allowed as to the fact the Cross of Lorraine (de Gaulle) was the heaviest cross he had to bear. The Germans would never have put up with his shenanigans, right? Collaboration was imposed, my friend. Thanks to Pétain, the French population did not have a Gauleiter and the destiny of Poland. However it is so important to humans to be on the victorious side that a large part of the population forgets that Pétain "a fait le don de sa personne" à la France. La Ney du Vair was expulsed from the Milice six months after its creation and before the London-driven civil war really exploded. He caused significant harm to the Milice. He was not in agreement with its changing doctrine, particular as exhibited by Pierre Cance, Fontaine, Gombert in the Secretariat. That fact does not prevent me from being open to the truth and revolted by gaullist and median excesses.
Voilà... knowledge conquers incomprehension and the excesses of the media and history written by gaullists.
Don't know how, but I managed to live through it all... and finally understood that our fathers did not have the same collective memory as we do. Did not have the same set of values. It was a period of blood and mud unknown to subsequent generations (other than in those countries in which more that 40 million have died in wars since WWII). Be suspicious of what you read and know your source. I must have read about my father from at leat 40 different sources. Never have I found a single one that did not make multiple factual errors (some invented lies also).
Shades of gray... not black and white. I think I'll find a forum on the US alliance with Stalin. That would be fun.
La Ney du Vair
As for the person who replied with the same old hyperbola we've heard for 60 year, I can only say that this person must have been born well after the war, subjected, as I mentioned to up to 60 years of incredible vilification of everything that had to do with the French government under the occupation, and specifically the Milice française, made to be the black sheep of the régime. Yes, there were crimes comitted by certain members of the Milice and those are to be condemned. But let's try to understand... we were in a civil war in 1943 and 1944. Is there anything worse than a civil war? Let's talk about crimes committed by the Resistance... how about the Jourdan family in Isère, massacred from the baby to the grandparents? Remember Voiron? There were many others. How about those who dressed in uniforms made to look like that of the Milice to commit their crimes and lay the blame on the Milice? To the extent that Vichy had to distribute pictures of what the uniform REALLY looked like. The Milice belonged to the ministry responsible for law and order. A ministry of the legal French government, recognized as such by all the major nations of the world (Ask Admiral Leahy). The Milice's initial mission was the struggle against the black market which was out of control. It also came to the assistance of the victims of allied bombing in France...which caused far more deaths than did the Germans in the French population. See: VALLA, Jean-Claude, La France sous les bombes américaines, Les cahiers libre d’Histoire No. 7, Paris, 2002. And should I mention the 10,000 French men and women assassinated by members of the Resistance and their illegal 1-minute courts at the time of the liberation... l'Épuration sauvage... want to see pictures? The real documents? Menthon got even for the little bath du Vair gave him? He was minister of Justice under de Gaulle at the time.
The Milice at the time of du Vair was unarmed. Seventy members of the Milice were assassinated before Darnand, in desperation and facing the loss of his men, called for reprisals. No reasonable person condones this, but it can be understood in the context of the times. The Milice's prime enemy was Communism. The best of the French resistance was Communist with a single goal, to take control of France at the end of the war. Who started this civil war? The answer is LONDON. Just go look up what men such as Maurice Schumann screamed on the airwaves... "Kill those men of the Milice, kill them like dogs!" Furthermore, London radio gaves openly the names of men of the Milice to assassinate.
As to collaboration, let's be realistic. The Iraqis are now largely cooperating with US occupation forces. Why? No choice, the population has to eat, has to work. Same thing in France. Example: Factories such as Renault gave jobs to the population. But it's production for Germany was limited by the French government to the manufacture of trucks, not weapons. Collaboration was inevitable but Pétain never helped the German war effort, even after Perfidious Albion (U.K.) attacked the French fleet (in the process of being disarmed) at Mers-el-Kébir and Dakar only a month after the British retreat at Dunkirk and the fall of France -- killing 1200 sailors and that after having all the garantees that France would not allow possession of its magnificent fleet by any country. If fact, France sank its own fleet at Toulon to prevent the Germans from laying hands on it subsequent to the allied landing in French North Africa. Just another little question for my "black and white" correspondent (who did not live the war as I did): De Gaulle disobeyed military orders and took off in Spears' airplane to London. That is a crime. What if all French leaders had done that? And what if de Gaulle had been selected as French Head of State instead of Pétain? Churchill put up with that rascal but also allowed as to the fact the Cross of Lorraine (de Gaulle) was the heaviest cross he had to bear. The Germans would never have put up with his shenanigans, right? Collaboration was imposed, my friend. Thanks to Pétain, the French population did not have a Gauleiter and the destiny of Poland. However it is so important to humans to be on the victorious side that a large part of the population forgets that Pétain "a fait le don de sa personne" à la France. La Ney du Vair was expulsed from the Milice six months after its creation and before the London-driven civil war really exploded. He caused significant harm to the Milice. He was not in agreement with its changing doctrine, particular as exhibited by Pierre Cance, Fontaine, Gombert in the Secretariat. That fact does not prevent me from being open to the truth and revolted by gaullist and median excesses.
Voilà... knowledge conquers incomprehension and the excesses of the media and history written by gaullists.
Don't know how, but I managed to live through it all... and finally understood that our fathers did not have the same collective memory as we do. Did not have the same set of values. It was a period of blood and mud unknown to subsequent generations (other than in those countries in which more that 40 million have died in wars since WWII). Be suspicious of what you read and know your source. I must have read about my father from at leat 40 different sources. Never have I found a single one that did not make multiple factual errors (some invented lies also).
Shades of gray... not black and white. I think I'll find a forum on the US alliance with Stalin. That would be fun.
La Ney du Vair
-
walterkaschner
- In memoriam
- Posts: 1588
- Joined: 13 Mar 2002, 02:17
- Location: Houston, Texas
Durand asked:
Durand has already turned up Julian Jackson's France: The Dark Years, which is excellent but devotes only a few pages to Darnand and the Milice.
Action Française (Stanford University Press, 1962), Eugen Weber's exhaustive and outstanding, but highly sympathetic, study of Charles Maurras and his newspaper, deals briefly with Darnand (who was initially a disciple of Maurras) and with the Milice, but is particularly useful both in demonstrating that the men of Vichy embraced a basic anti-Republican political viewpoint which had been held by a substantial number of vocal and influential Frenchmen since the foundation of the Third Republic (witness the Dreyfus affair), and, on the other hand, how the same group was rent asunder by internicine squabbling, personal ambition, competition and for at least some a drifting further and further toward the extreme and violent right (Darnand himself being a good example), to a point at which even Germany under Hitler, however despicable, seemed nonetheless worth supporting simply in order to combat the threat of Communism.
Ian Ousby's Occupation: The Ordeal of France 1940-1944 (St Martin's Press 1997) deals with the subject somewhat more extensively at 267-75 and passim, and although he writes with a rather lively, anecdotal and journalistic style and is not a professional historian, he seems to have his facts in order and to be generally balanced and reliable. His emphasis centers on the assasinations and other brutalities committed by the Milice, but balances these with instances where elements of the Maquis were no better, if not worse.
Phillipe Burrin's excellent La France à l'Heure Allemande: 1940-1944 has been translated and published in the US as France Under the Germans: Collaboration and Compromise (The New Press, 1996). Burrin devotes a chapter ("Militias") and a portion of the next ("Rout") on Darnand and the Milice, with emphasis on their relationship to Laval's political stategy.
There are two relatively recent histories of the Milice, one by Jacque Delperrié de Bayac (around 1993) and one by Pierre Giolitto (around 1998, paperback in 2002), but if one doesn't read French these will obviously frustrate rather than help.
Regards, Kaschner
Unfortunately, I know of no English language books dealing exclusively with either Joseph Darnand or the Vichy Milice. There are, however, several books in English dealing with Vichy France which contain brief treatments of the Milice and Darnand's role in establishing it, and which should be available even in smaller libraries or through inter-library loan. Ostuf Charlemagne to the contrary, Robert O. Paxton's Vichy France: Old Guard and New Order, although some 30 years old, IMHO still remains the seminal study in English of Vichy France, and I'm certain he dealt with the Milice in some detail, but I can't find my copy and so can't furnish page citations. Robert Aron's Histoire de Vichy deals with the Milice peripheraly, and I'm sure it has been translated into English but I only have the French edition.Can any members of the community please provide some information regarding the formation of the MF, it's organization, membership, and activities? Can anyone recommend any English language books on Joseph Darnand and/or the Milice Francaise?
Durand has already turned up Julian Jackson's France: The Dark Years, which is excellent but devotes only a few pages to Darnand and the Milice.
Action Française (Stanford University Press, 1962), Eugen Weber's exhaustive and outstanding, but highly sympathetic, study of Charles Maurras and his newspaper, deals briefly with Darnand (who was initially a disciple of Maurras) and with the Milice, but is particularly useful both in demonstrating that the men of Vichy embraced a basic anti-Republican political viewpoint which had been held by a substantial number of vocal and influential Frenchmen since the foundation of the Third Republic (witness the Dreyfus affair), and, on the other hand, how the same group was rent asunder by internicine squabbling, personal ambition, competition and for at least some a drifting further and further toward the extreme and violent right (Darnand himself being a good example), to a point at which even Germany under Hitler, however despicable, seemed nonetheless worth supporting simply in order to combat the threat of Communism.
Ian Ousby's Occupation: The Ordeal of France 1940-1944 (St Martin's Press 1997) deals with the subject somewhat more extensively at 267-75 and passim, and although he writes with a rather lively, anecdotal and journalistic style and is not a professional historian, he seems to have his facts in order and to be generally balanced and reliable. His emphasis centers on the assasinations and other brutalities committed by the Milice, but balances these with instances where elements of the Maquis were no better, if not worse.
Phillipe Burrin's excellent La France à l'Heure Allemande: 1940-1944 has been translated and published in the US as France Under the Germans: Collaboration and Compromise (The New Press, 1996). Burrin devotes a chapter ("Militias") and a portion of the next ("Rout") on Darnand and the Milice, with emphasis on their relationship to Laval's political stategy.
There are two relatively recent histories of the Milice, one by Jacque Delperrié de Bayac (around 1993) and one by Pierre Giolitto (around 1998, paperback in 2002), but if one doesn't read French these will obviously frustrate rather than help.
Regards, Kaschner
[quote="duVair"]
As for the person who replied with the same old hyperbola we've heard for 60 year, I can only say that this person must have been born well after the war,
Bonsoir
In fact , I'm only 71.....thus born well before the war ,in which I was deeply concerned .......but that's another story
All my life I tried to read ,learn , listen about that sordid part of our French History
You have your own opinions ,du Vair, but how many french share them.......apart a bunch of nostalgics or revisionnists ?
You quote the case of Chef milicien Jacquin family's massacre but how many crimes and tortures of innocents is Milice guilty ?..........the list would be long to quote !
Free to du Vair to pray for his own parish
The only two good and almost comprehensive and objective books about that period (as indicated by Walterkaschner) written by D.de Bayac -1967- and P.Giolitto-1997: Histoire de la Milice...............I don't know if ever translated
Bonne soirée
Lavella
As for the person who replied with the same old hyperbola we've heard for 60 year, I can only say that this person must have been born well after the war,
Bonsoir
In fact , I'm only 71.....thus born well before the war ,in which I was deeply concerned .......but that's another story
All my life I tried to read ,learn , listen about that sordid part of our French History
You have your own opinions ,du Vair, but how many french share them.......apart a bunch of nostalgics or revisionnists ?
You quote the case of Chef milicien Jacquin family's massacre but how many crimes and tortures of innocents is Milice guilty ?..........the list would be long to quote !
Free to du Vair to pray for his own parish
The only two good and almost comprehensive and objective books about that period (as indicated by Walterkaschner) written by D.de Bayac -1967- and P.Giolitto-1997: Histoire de la Milice...............I don't know if ever translated
Bonne soirée
Lavella
Hallo Kaschner and Lavella,
Many thanks to you for the suggestions.
Kaschner, once again I am indebted to you. I have found your recommendations always to be solid. They sometimes make me poorer in pocket, but always richer in knowledge. Being an academic at heart, I find it a fair trade.
Best Regards,
Durand
Many thanks to you for the suggestions.
Kaschner, once again I am indebted to you. I have found your recommendations always to be solid. They sometimes make me poorer in pocket, but always richer in knowledge. Being an academic at heart, I find it a fair trade.
Best Regards,
Durand
Mr. Lavella
There are evil things in all civil wars and it is useless to count the tragedies. For your information Derperrié de Bayac on the Milice is pathetic and full of lies. I once corrected 25 errors on his part on my father alone (and some the them were volontary.) Giollito is a little more accurate but glued against the gaullist propaganda.
FOR A DISCIPLINED REPORTING OF THE OCCUPATION, READ:
There are evil things in all civil wars and it is useless to count the tragedies. For your information Derperrié de Bayac on the Milice is pathetic and full of lies. I once corrected 25 errors on his part on my father alone (and some the them were volontary.) Giollito is a little more accurate but glued against the gaullist propaganda.
FOR A DISCIPLINED REPORTING OF THE OCCUPATION, READ:
HISTOIRE DE LA COLLABORATION, by Dominique VENNER, Éditions Pygmalion/Gérard Watelet, Paris, 2000 ISBN 2-85704-642-1
I am convinced that you will agree with me that this is the most accurate and well resesearched book on the subject.
Ask your librarian about it.
After you read it, I would love to continue a conversation with you.
La Ney du Vair
EN FRANÇAIS
M. Lavella
Il y a des choses diaboliques dans toutes les guerres civiles et il est inutile de compter les tragédies. Sachez que Delperrié de Bayac sur la Milice est pathétique et plein de mensonges. J'avais déjà corrigé 25 erreurs de sa part uniquement au sujet de mon père (et plusieurs étaient voulus). Giollito est un peu plus recherché mais il est collé sur la propagande gaulliste.
POUR UN REPORTAGE DISCIPLINÉ SUR L'OCCUPATION, LISEZ: HISTOIRE DE LA COLLABORATION, par Dominique VENNER, Éditions Pygmalion/Gérard Watelet, Paris, 2000 ISBN 2-85704-642-1
Je suis convaincu que vous serez d'accord avec moi que cet oeuvre est la plus précise et la recherchée sur le sujet.
Demandez chez votre libraire.
Après que vous l'auriez lu, j'aimerais bien continuer une conversation avec vous.
La Ney du Vair
BonsoirduVair wrote:Mr. Lavella
There are evil things in all civil wars and it is useless to count the tragedies. For your information Derperrié de Bayac on the Milice is pathetic and full of lies. I once corrected 25 errors on his part on my father alone (and some the them were volontary.) Giollito is a little more accurate but glued against the gaullist propaganda.
FOR A DISCIPLINED REPORTING OF THE OCCUPATION, READ:HISTOIRE DE LA COLLABORATION, by Dominique VENNER, Éditions Pygmalion/Gérard Watelet, Paris, 2000 ISBN 2-85704-642-1
I am convinced that you will agree with me that this is the most accurate and well resesearched book on the subject.
Ask your librarian about it.
After you read it, I would love to continue a conversation with you.
La Ney du Vair
EN FRANÇAIS
M. Lavella
Il y a des choses diaboliques dans toutes les guerres civiles et il est inutile de compter les tragédies. Sachez que Delperrié de Bayac sur la Milice est pathétique et plein de mensonges. J'avais déjà corrigé 25 erreurs de sa part uniquement au sujet de mon père (et plusieurs étaient voulus). Giollito est un peu plus recherché mais il est collé sur la propagande gaulliste.
POUR UN REPORTAGE DISCIPLINÉ SUR L'OCCUPATION, LISEZ: HISTOIRE DE LA COLLABORATION, par Dominique VENNER, Éditions Pygmalion/Gérard Watelet, Paris, 2000 ISBN 2-85704-642-1
Je suis convaincu que vous serez d'accord avec moi que cet oeuvre est la plus précise et la recherchée sur le sujet.
Demandez chez votre libraire.
Après que vous l'auriez lu, j'aimerais bien continuer une conversation avec vous.
La Ney du Vair
Dans ce domaine surtout ,il ne peut y avoir d'objectivité integrale. Cependant les 2 auteurs precités essaient de l'etre ,tout comme Amouroux dans sa volumineuse compilation .
Dominique Venner est un historien talentueux (je le prefère dans ses ouvrages sur la chasse et les armes ) mais il est plus que marqué à l'extrème droite (voir son parcours)et j'emets des doutes sur la "discipline de son reportage" .....mais je le lirai (un de plus! )
Ah ! j'oubliais "Histoire de la Collaboration" de Saint Paulien (un adjoint de Doriot ) paru dans les années 60
Sa lecture au second degré est un vrai regal!!!!
Rough and approximate translation
In that area ,there can't be full objectivity .But these 2 authors ,like Amouroux,try to be so .
D.Venner is a talented writer (I prefer his books on weapons and hunting ! ) but he is ,politically speaking , on the far- far right side and somewhat a revisionnist (see his background) and his discipline as a reporter is highly questionnable ........but I'll read him (I'm used to read everything from Je suis Partout to l'Humanité )
Ah ! I forgot : Histoire de la Collaboration ,issued in the 60's , by Saint Paulien (aka Maurice Ivan Sicard ,a former propagandist of PPF and Doriot's deputy)..............a real treat
........for lies and parti pris-
walterkaschner
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Thanks to M. du Vair for the recommendation of Dominique Venner's Histoire de la Collaboration. I will certainly try to find a copy, as I'm quite interested in obtaining a balanced and fair view of that terribly tragic period of French history. It is hard for one who has not been actually faced with the dilemna to imagine the agony of decent, patriotic Frenchmen in attempting to determine what honorable couse to take after the nation's defeat by the Germans in 1941. IIRC even Anthony Eden had to admit, in Ophul's documentary Le Chagrin et la Pitié that he really didn't know what course he himself would have taken had he been a Frenchman at that time.
Regards, Kaschner
Regards, Kaschner
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Daniel Laurent
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- Location: French, but living in Thailand
I have the book of Dominique Venner.
I also think that it is quite balanced in spite of the political origin of the Author who was a member of a French Far right party in 1966, see photo below (Courtesy Lavella...)
However, his book was published in 2000, he may have altered his opinions in between.
Unfortunately, I am not sure that he was ever translated in English.
Concerning the Milice, you can see a brief history at:
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=7264
My sources are listed at:
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=7261
Venner is in that list and, for the pages for the Milice, was my main source.
I am intending to enrich those pages with some more details about the father of Mr. du Vair who, from what I know, was one of the most sympathetic and original figure of the Milice.
By sympathetic, I mean the total absence of any racist or criminal engagement in his record. For a Milice officer, to be noted and appreciated.
By original, I mean his way to push ahead his own ideas and concept whatever was the outcome, something quite unusual in the disciplined atmosphere of the Petain regime at that time.
But it is quite difficult to discuss with Mr. du Vair. I wonder who is the "Gaullist" to whom he is referring to, Lavella or me?
However, so what? The events, whatever horrible they were, are 60 years old. I believe it's time to discuss about them in a peacefull and open minded atmosphere. I have, right know, interesting and peacefull discussions with a 84 years old former FTP (French Communists undergound guerrilla, the main actor from that side of what Mr. du Vair rightly call the 43-44 French civil war). Sorry, the old man can't speak English otherwise I would have brought him here, to spice up the debate.
Mr. du Vair, fighting for the truth is a very difficult exercise that require a bit of humility and tolerance. As you rightly say, no black and white, only miscelaneous tones of grey. My FTP friend was somehow right, somehow wrong. The same apply to all sides of those tragic events, including the one of your father.
Do you know this quote of Dominique Ponchardier in “Les paves de l’enfer”, Gallimard, Paris, 1950? He was a tough resistance fighter:
“In absolute value, the men of action in all camps are the same sort of men. I fought toughly the Milice but, if I hate them, I also have more regard for them than for the cowards and the liars whomsoever they are”.
(I Found that in Venner book, to be honest)
Here we are, Mr. du Vair: Men of action in all camps are the same sort of men. Let's talk about them and forget for a while the cowards and the liars whomsoever they are. Thanks in advance.
By the way, you mentioned in another post that you have a photo of the de Menthon "Order of the Bath" award. Would you mind to post it here?
Regards
Daniel
I also think that it is quite balanced in spite of the political origin of the Author who was a member of a French Far right party in 1966, see photo below (Courtesy Lavella...)
However, his book was published in 2000, he may have altered his opinions in between.
Unfortunately, I am not sure that he was ever translated in English.
Concerning the Milice, you can see a brief history at:
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=7264
My sources are listed at:
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=7261
Venner is in that list and, for the pages for the Milice, was my main source.
I am intending to enrich those pages with some more details about the father of Mr. du Vair who, from what I know, was one of the most sympathetic and original figure of the Milice.
By sympathetic, I mean the total absence of any racist or criminal engagement in his record. For a Milice officer, to be noted and appreciated.
By original, I mean his way to push ahead his own ideas and concept whatever was the outcome, something quite unusual in the disciplined atmosphere of the Petain regime at that time.
But it is quite difficult to discuss with Mr. du Vair. I wonder who is the "Gaullist" to whom he is referring to, Lavella or me?
However, so what? The events, whatever horrible they were, are 60 years old. I believe it's time to discuss about them in a peacefull and open minded atmosphere. I have, right know, interesting and peacefull discussions with a 84 years old former FTP (French Communists undergound guerrilla, the main actor from that side of what Mr. du Vair rightly call the 43-44 French civil war). Sorry, the old man can't speak English otherwise I would have brought him here, to spice up the debate.
Mr. du Vair, fighting for the truth is a very difficult exercise that require a bit of humility and tolerance. As you rightly say, no black and white, only miscelaneous tones of grey. My FTP friend was somehow right, somehow wrong. The same apply to all sides of those tragic events, including the one of your father.
Do you know this quote of Dominique Ponchardier in “Les paves de l’enfer”, Gallimard, Paris, 1950? He was a tough resistance fighter:
“In absolute value, the men of action in all camps are the same sort of men. I fought toughly the Milice but, if I hate them, I also have more regard for them than for the cowards and the liars whomsoever they are”.
(I Found that in Venner book, to be honest)
Here we are, Mr. du Vair: Men of action in all camps are the same sort of men. Let's talk about them and forget for a while the cowards and the liars whomsoever they are. Thanks in advance.
By the way, you mentioned in another post that you have a photo of the de Menthon "Order of the Bath" award. Would you mind to post it here?
Regards
Daniel
- Attachments
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- venner 002.jpg (178.36 KiB) Viewed 2574 times
Photo Comte de Menthon
Photo of the Count of Menthon at Annecy May 1, 1942
Mon père disait : "Un règlement de compte entre comtes !"
That does not translate in English.
La Ney du Vair[/img]
Mon père disait : "Un règlement de compte entre comtes !"
That does not translate in English.
La Ney du Vair[/img]
- Attachments
-
- Baignade du comte de Menthon, Annecy 1er mai, 1942
- Baignade de Menthon,1 mai 42.jpg (94.12 KiB) Viewed 2538 times
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walterkaschner
- In memoriam
- Posts: 1588
- Joined: 13 Mar 2002, 02:17
- Location: Houston, Texas
-
Daniel Laurent
- Member
- Posts: 623
- Joined: 20 Aug 2005, 09:27
- Location: French, but living in Thailand
Bonjour Pierre,
Thanks for the photo.
Knowing the long list of horrors that were generated by WW2 in general and the French civil war in particular, I find this "incident" as totally atypic, hence my interest for it.
Just figure it out: Mid of 1941, a supporter of Marshall Petain "aggressed" a supporter of General de Gaulle by.... letting him have a "bottom bath" in public
We have a say in France: "Le ridicule tue" (Approx.: Ridiculousness kills)
Unfortunately, it wasn't like that after. It was only guns that were killing.
I have now a little polemic on this topic in a French forum at:
http://www.croixdefer.com/forums/index. ... 1249&st=45
The title of the thread is:
Les Américains dans la Waffen SS... you got my point.
Please, join, my correspondents there had a rather good question:
Are you *really* the son of Mr. du Vair?
Do not take it personal, Pierre, the Internet is absolutely saturated with hackers, falsificationists, liars, trolls, name it, who take advantage of the anonimity.
And, if it is not too much to ask, can we get some details re. the animosity that your father had with Darnand? What were the reasons, the background.
Thanks in advance
Salutations distinguées
Daniel
Thanks for the photo.
Knowing the long list of horrors that were generated by WW2 in general and the French civil war in particular, I find this "incident" as totally atypic, hence my interest for it.
Just figure it out: Mid of 1941, a supporter of Marshall Petain "aggressed" a supporter of General de Gaulle by.... letting him have a "bottom bath" in public
We have a say in France: "Le ridicule tue" (Approx.: Ridiculousness kills)
Unfortunately, it wasn't like that after. It was only guns that were killing.
I have now a little polemic on this topic in a French forum at:
http://www.croixdefer.com/forums/index. ... 1249&st=45
The title of the thread is:
Les Américains dans la Waffen SS... you got my point.
Please, join, my correspondents there had a rather good question:
Are you *really* the son of Mr. du Vair?
Do not take it personal, Pierre, the Internet is absolutely saturated with hackers, falsificationists, liars, trolls, name it, who take advantage of the anonimity.
And, if it is not too much to ask, can we get some details re. the animosity that your father had with Darnand? What were the reasons, the background.
Thanks in advance
Salutations distinguées
Daniel