Serbia in cooperation with Axis during World War II
Serbia in cooperation with Axis during World War II
How I see on most English language pages nobody talks about regime of Miladin Nedic and Serbian King troops so-called Chetniks during WW2, and if they do, they have complete wrong opinion that in Serbia were not colaborations with NAZI? I must disappoint them. Serb on many ways has collaborations with Nazi during WW2.
What is strange that during WW2 Serbian King Alexander Karadzordjevic was in London and Washington and same time his under command military officer Draza Mihajlovic, was fight together with nazi. Even until 1943, Churchill and UK help to Draza Mihajlovic Chetniks.
What is strange that during WW2 Serbian King Alexander Karadzordjevic was in London and Washington and same time his under command military officer Draza Mihajlovic, was fight together with nazi. Even until 1943, Churchill and UK help to Draza Mihajlovic Chetniks.
- Allen Milcic
- Member
- Posts: 2903
- Joined: 09 Sep 2003, 21:29
- Location: Canada
Hi Lloyd:
It is true that the collaboration of the Cetniks with the Germans is a relatively unknown fact outside of the former Yugoslav states, and that practically nothing is known of the regime of Milan Nedic. It would be great for further discussion if you could provide sources for your claims.
See also the thread on "partizan warcrimes" at:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=47228
where the issue of the Cetniks is also being discussed.
Allen/
It is true that the collaboration of the Cetniks with the Germans is a relatively unknown fact outside of the former Yugoslav states, and that practically nothing is known of the regime of Milan Nedic. It would be great for further discussion if you could provide sources for your claims.
See also the thread on "partizan warcrimes" at:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=47228
where the issue of the Cetniks is also being discussed.
Allen/
Hi,
I think many books about Yugoslavia during WW II contained infos about Chetnik collaboration with the Germans. In fact, in Western world, since 1944, it has been generally accepted that Mihailovic and his followers were collaborators, "men who preferred co-operation with the Axis to joining Tito's fight against occupation". As an example, Sir John Hammerton's "The Second Great War" book said about: "Gen. Draha Mihailovich, leader of the Chetniks and most noted of the alleged quislings and war criminal tried in Yugoslavia..." (vol. 9, 1946). In fact, in Time-Life's Partisan and Guerilla book there is a photo about Chetnik killing.
However, the Chetnik case is NOT as simple as like that.
Contrary to general belief, Mihailovic was not a Serb nationalist. He was C-in-C of the Yugoslav army. His Chetniks should, in fact, be called the Royal Yugoslav Army in the Fatherland (JVuO), founded on May 13th, 1941. In fact, in his army ranks, there were many non Serbs, including a Moslem Chetnik battalion (see Lepre book)
However, his army was a loose federation of several nationalist resistance. It took Mihailovic a year to win their allegiance, although it was difficult for him to extend his authority far beyond his HQ. In fact, many of his men loyal only to their's local commander.
Thus, Chetniks movement differed from province to province: in Bosnia and Croatia they stood for self-defense against extermination; in Serbia, for the restoration of the monarchy and hegemony over Yugoslavia; in Montenegro for counter-revolution.
Why the Chetniks loose?
It's because they applied a strategy to preserved Serbs live because the Nazi exacting a terrible price in reprisals, murdering 100 Serbs for every German killed, and 50 for every German wounded. Mihailovic didn't like Communist hit and run tactic that didn't give a damn about reprisals. (Contrary, Tito and his men believe that if civilians life unbearable, they will became grim and furious to occupiers and ready to join with the Partisan).
Too bad, Churchill like Tito's strategy than Mihailovic's because he only care with anybody who could and want to killed Germans as many as possible.Thus, Tito get anything from Churchill: weapons, supplies, and political support.
The Chetniks, who short supplies and tried hard to preserved their people, forced to made some deals with Axis. BTW, you must remember that while Italians gladly gave them status as auxilliary, the Germans always suspected the Chetniks. In fact, there were many violence incidences between Chetniks and Germans - and the Nazis still give a price for Mihailovic's head until the end of war. Theirs collaboration itself only because they have common enemy: the Communist Partisan.
Lastly, the Communist themselves didn't regard the Chetniks as enemies and collaborators of the invaders. In fact, until the end of the war,the Communist regard them in a special way, that is, not as fascist but as "domestic traitors" - adversaries who, for reactionary and chauvinistic reasons, were led into agreements and collaboration with the invader.
Best Regards,
Nino
Bless the people who like to help others.
I think many books about Yugoslavia during WW II contained infos about Chetnik collaboration with the Germans. In fact, in Western world, since 1944, it has been generally accepted that Mihailovic and his followers were collaborators, "men who preferred co-operation with the Axis to joining Tito's fight against occupation". As an example, Sir John Hammerton's "The Second Great War" book said about: "Gen. Draha Mihailovich, leader of the Chetniks and most noted of the alleged quislings and war criminal tried in Yugoslavia..." (vol. 9, 1946). In fact, in Time-Life's Partisan and Guerilla book there is a photo about Chetnik killing.
However, the Chetnik case is NOT as simple as like that.
Contrary to general belief, Mihailovic was not a Serb nationalist. He was C-in-C of the Yugoslav army. His Chetniks should, in fact, be called the Royal Yugoslav Army in the Fatherland (JVuO), founded on May 13th, 1941. In fact, in his army ranks, there were many non Serbs, including a Moslem Chetnik battalion (see Lepre book)
However, his army was a loose federation of several nationalist resistance. It took Mihailovic a year to win their allegiance, although it was difficult for him to extend his authority far beyond his HQ. In fact, many of his men loyal only to their's local commander.
Thus, Chetniks movement differed from province to province: in Bosnia and Croatia they stood for self-defense against extermination; in Serbia, for the restoration of the monarchy and hegemony over Yugoslavia; in Montenegro for counter-revolution.
Why the Chetniks loose?
It's because they applied a strategy to preserved Serbs live because the Nazi exacting a terrible price in reprisals, murdering 100 Serbs for every German killed, and 50 for every German wounded. Mihailovic didn't like Communist hit and run tactic that didn't give a damn about reprisals. (Contrary, Tito and his men believe that if civilians life unbearable, they will became grim and furious to occupiers and ready to join with the Partisan).
Too bad, Churchill like Tito's strategy than Mihailovic's because he only care with anybody who could and want to killed Germans as many as possible.Thus, Tito get anything from Churchill: weapons, supplies, and political support.
The Chetniks, who short supplies and tried hard to preserved their people, forced to made some deals with Axis. BTW, you must remember that while Italians gladly gave them status as auxilliary, the Germans always suspected the Chetniks. In fact, there were many violence incidences between Chetniks and Germans - and the Nazis still give a price for Mihailovic's head until the end of war. Theirs collaboration itself only because they have common enemy: the Communist Partisan.
Lastly, the Communist themselves didn't regard the Chetniks as enemies and collaborators of the invaders. In fact, until the end of the war,the Communist regard them in a special way, that is, not as fascist but as "domestic traitors" - adversaries who, for reactionary and chauvinistic reasons, were led into agreements and collaboration with the invader.
Best Regards,
Nino
Bless the people who like to help others.
I am so sorry but main target for Chetniks were Bosniaks (muslim like religion) and Croats. During WW2 in former Yugoslavia it was not just that collaborations with NAZI by Chetniks were bad thing. More worst thing was that Chetniks and same like Ustasha were responsible for many thousand killings of innocents people, what they don't have anything with NAZI.ninoo wrote:Hi,
I think many books about Yugoslavia during WW II contained infos about Chetnik collaboration with the Germans. In fact, in Western world, since 1944, it has been generally accepted that Mihailovic and his followers were collaborators, "men who preferred co-operation with the Axis to joining Tito's fight against occupation". As an example, Sir John Hammerton's "The Second Great War" book said about: "Gen. Draha Mihailovich, leader of the Chetniks and most noted of the alleged quislings and war criminal tried in Yugoslavia..." (vol. 9, 1946). In fact, in Time-Life's Partisan and Guerilla book there is a photo about Chetnik killing.
However, the Chetnik case is NOT as simple as like that.
Contrary to general belief, Mihailovic was not a Serb nationalist. He was C-in-C of the Yugoslav army. His Chetniks should, in fact, be called the Royal Yugoslav Army in the Fatherland (JVuO), founded on May 13th, 1941. In fact, in his army ranks, there were many non Serbs, including a Moslem Chetnik battalion (see Lepre book)
However, his army was a loose federation of several nationalist resistance. It took Mihailovic a year to win their allegiance, although it was difficult for him to extend his authority far beyond his HQ. In fact, many of his men loyal only to their's local commander.
Thus, Chetniks movement differed from province to province: in Bosnia and Croatia they stood for self-defense against extermination; in Serbia, for the restoration of the monarchy and hegemony over Yugoslavia; in Montenegro for counter-revolution.
Why the Chetniks loose?
It's because they applied a strategy to preserved Serbs live because the Nazi exacting a terrible price in reprisals, murdering 100 Serbs for every German killed, and 50 for every German wounded. Mihailovic didn't like Communist hit and run tactic that didn't give a damn about reprisals. (Contrary, Tito and his men believe that if civilians life unbearable, they will became grim and furious to occupiers and ready to join with the Partisan).
Too bad, Churchill like Tito's strategy than Mihailovic's because he only care with anybody who could and want to killed Germans as many as possible.Thus, Tito get anything from Churchill: weapons, supplies, and political support.
The Chetniks, who short supplies and tried hard to preserved their people, forced to made some deals with Axis. BTW, you must remember that while Italians gladly gave them status as auxilliary, the Germans always suspected the Chetniks. In fact, there were many violence incidences between Chetniks and Germans - and the Nazis still give a price for Mihailovic's head until the end of war. Theirs collaboration itself only because they have common enemy: the Communist Partisan.
Lastly, the Communist themselves didn't regard the Chetniks as enemies and collaborators of the invaders. In fact, until the end of the war,the Communist regard them in a special way, that is, not as fascist but as "domestic traitors" - adversaries who, for reactionary and chauvinistic reasons, were led into agreements and collaboration with the invader.
Best Regards,
Nino
Bless the people who like to help others.
That what you wrote is Serbian propaganda. "Yugoslav" word forgets when you speak about Chetniks.
Yes, “colonel” D. Mihajlovic was some officer in Serbian king not Bosnian not Croats, “Yugoslav” royal army before WW2.
We must understand that Serbia after WW1 get from England and France mainly because they started WW1, all Croatia and Bosnia. They don’t call that Serbia but Yugoslavia. It is same thing if we said that Austro-Hungarian Archduke Ferdinand was Bosnian or Croats Archduke. No, he was not. Austro-Hungarian Empire occupied Bosnia and Croatia. Same thing, was after WW1, just with help of England, Russia and France, Serbs occupied Bosnia and Croatia and Serbia with mainly British help replace Austro-Hungarian Empire in Bosnia and Croatia.
They called that first Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians (cover up) and later Yugoslav Kingdom. But that was Serbian kingdom, which occupied Croatia and Bosnia. “Yugoslavia kingdom” after WW1 was dictatorship country by Serbian king.
And of course they were not being able to say this is Serbia now, and because of that they invented name Yugoslavia. But under that what international community don't know or they want to know, Serbian king and Serbia made huge crimes against non-Serbs in Bosnia and Croatia between WW1 and WW2 or before Croats Ustasha regime.
For example about one, look this, million Bosniaks was forced to leave Bosnia and former Yugoslavia because of Serbia crimes between WW1 and WW2 in Bosnia against them. Serbian king from Serbia take from them all theirs property and give to the Serbs.
Serbian Kings does same with Croats in some area of Croatia or Bosnia.
I was not surprised that Croats get during WW2 Ustasha regime, like response to the Serbian “domination” in Yugoslavia between WW1 and WW2.
More correctly not domination but they try to exterminate all non-Serbs nations in some of area of Bosnia and Croatia and just like Milosevic and again Serbia does in Bosnia during war in Bosnia. Main goal was and is even today territory and all others they don’t have on theirs mind.
How we see today they almost succeed with that.
Plan so-called "Great Serbia" was invented in that time, and that plan was reality in that time exactly after WW1 and before WW2.
So when Serbs speak about Yugoslavia they don't think about one democratic and fair state for all nation in, but they think on state Serbia just with name Yugoslavia and they think just on one thing: How Serbia in Yugoslavia will be bigger mainly west from Serbia today. Read Bosnia and Croatia.
How we know after last wars in former Yugoslavia Serbian president Milosevic today in the Hague, accepted that genocide politics of Chetniks and Serbian King and he does exactly the same thing but this time international community knows for that. Under name of Yugoslavia he try to establish Serbia in Bosnia and Croatia. Main goal was and is Croatia and Bosnia territories, because this plan so-called 'Great Serbia' is "online" even today.
Plan so-called ‘Great Serbia’
1. "First move Serbs in some territories of Bosnia and Croatia. (They does during Yugoslavia between WW1 and WW2 and more cover during Tito's Yugoslavia)
2. After that (during Milosevic or Chetniks time during WW2) on same territory kill all non-Serbs nations. (During WW2 Chetniks killed many but they was not succeed like Milosevic in 90’s)
3. Than you have Serbia in Bosnia or Croatia
Prove: Republic of Srpska (Serbian Republic in Bosnia) in Bosnia today. How we know never, ever during all history in Bosnia Serbs don’t have any of the Bosnian territory like exclusively Serbians. We are able to say that Croats or Bosniaks does, but for Serbs we are not able to say that.
They first in time of Serbian king and mainly between WW1 and WW2 (and with smaller tempo in Tito's Yugoslavia), move huge number of Serbs from Serbia in North and East Bosnia and East and South Croatia (Dalmatia). Before or during WW2, Serbian King and later Chetniks on the exactly same plaices in Bosnia and Croatia on massive scale killed Croats, Bosniacs and all other non-Serbs in Bosnia and Croatia.
Croats response on all that was Ustasha. Of course we know everything about Ustasha regime because of Serbian and English propaganda after WW2.
But we don't know that during WW2 Serbian King troops which did Churchill and England support until 1943 were responsible for almost same number of killings in the areas in Croatia and Bosnia where Milosevic try to establish Serbia after 50 years.
That's mean don't even mention name Yugoslavia, because that was always cover up for "Great Serbia" and same like during last wars in former Yugoslavia where Milosevic cover his plan of Great Serbia behind name of Yugoslavia or "Yugoslav" national army or "Yugoslav" parliament and etc.
When you talk in future about that things don't even mention name of Yugoslavia where you don't need mention that word.
Yugoslavia for Serbs from WW1, during Tito's Yugoslavia until today and even today was and is cover up for "Great Serbia" and only what they does try to gain is Bosnian and Croats teritory what will later according to them become Serbia.
First of all, we were talking about the qvisling state lead by General Nedic. The Tschetniks are a seperate issue. This state provided qvisling support for the Nazis. That was the main point.ninoo wrote:Hi,
Contrary to general belief, Mihailovic was not a Serb nationalist. He was C-in-C of the Yugoslav army. His Chetniks should, in fact, be called the Royal Yugoslav Army in the Fatherland (JVuO), founded on May 13th, 1941. In fact, in his army ranks, there were many non Serbs, including a Moslem Chetnik battalion (see Lepre book)
However, his army was a loose federation of several nationalist resistance. It took Mihailovic a year to win their allegiance, although it was difficult for him to extend his authority far beyond his HQ. In fact, many of his men loyal only to their's local commander.
Thus, Chetniks movement differed from province to province: in Bosnia and Croatia they stood for self-defense against extermination; in Serbia, for the restoration of the monarchy and hegemony over Yugoslavia; in Montenegro for counter-revolution.
Why the Chetniks loose?
It's because they applied a strategy to preserved Serbs live because the Nazi exacting a terrible price in reprisals, murdering 100 Serbs for every German killed, and 50 for every German wounded. Mihailovic didn't like Communist hit and run tactic that didn't give a damn about reprisals. (Contrary, Tito and his men believe that if civilians life unbearable, they will became grim and furious to occupiers and ready to join with the Partisan).
Too bad, Churchill like Tito's strategy than Mihailovic's because he only care with anybody who could and want to killed Germans as many as possible.Thus, Tito get anything from Churchill: weapons, supplies, and political support.
The Chetniks, who short supplies and tried hard to preserved their people, forced to made some deals with Axis. BTW, you must remember that while Italians gladly gave them status as auxilliary, the Germans always suspected the Chetniks. In fact, there were many violence incidences between Chetniks and Germans - and the Nazis still give a price for Mihailovic's head until the end of war. Theirs collaboration itself only because they have common enemy: the Communist Partisan.
Lastly, the Communist themselves didn't regard the Chetniks as enemies and collaborators of the invaders. In fact, until the end of the war,the Communist regard them in a special way, that is, not as fascist but as "domestic traitors" - adversaries who, for reactionary and chauvinistic reasons, were led into agreements and collaboration with the invader.
Best Regards,
Nino
Bless the people who like to help others.
On the Tchetniks. Tchetniks were etablished prior to WWI, and they were resistance fighter in WWI. In the interwar period they formed a fifth column which should have been used in offensive or defensive wars.
In WWII, the "movement" started becouse colonel Draza lead his 30 men from Bosnia to the middle Serbian mountains, where he counted the remanants of the army were reforming and ready to continue the struggle. When he arrived there, there were no others, so he had to choice to surrender (latter then the other units, which was bad) or call for an uprising.
Teached by WWI ecperince they however made little to no moves versus the axis, making they movement rather pointless and powerless. However they did engage in ethnic cleanisng '41 in Eastern Bosnia, and they latter fought versus the partisans.
For Llyod
From history we also could see it in Circassians case during 17th and 19th Century, where many Muslim people who didn't want to live under Russian left theirs home and followed the retreat of Ottomans soldiers. Or maybe the case of Serbs who left their home in Kosovo after Turkey conquest their homeland.
During Turkish rule, Bosnia divided according religion lines. Contrary, during the Habsburg rule it divided according nationality as Habsburg policy to keep their's south Slavic land. If you read history, you could see that Yugoslavia was an idea of Slovenian and Croatians who tried to free themselves from dominations of Austrians and Hungarians in austro-Hungary Empire.
About Nedic. I think his regime position have one important different with the NDH: while NDH was a free state, Nedic's Serbia was an occupied area. So, his government only a mouth-piece of Germans. BTW Serbia also have their's own fascist like Ljotics.
Best Regards,
Nino
Bless the people who like help others
I don't think so. I think their's main target was the Communists because they become their's main rival to be Yugoslavian ruler after the war.but main target for Chetniks were Bosniaks (muslim like religion) and Croats
I agree with your point that Chetniks also killed thousands innocents people although as I have pointed there are many reasons behind it (some simply revenge, some have political motives, etc.) But Chetniks killing was not same with the Ustasha because the latter did as a state policy.More worst thing was that Chetniks and same like Ustasha were responsible for many thousand killings of innocents people, what they don't have anything with NAZI.
As far as I know, that became a policy between Balkan states (including Turkey) to change peoples after new borders between them created post WWI. BTW, of course that during the process there were intimidations (including killing, etc). Maybe the famous case about this policy is change peoples between Greece and Turkey.million Bosniaks was forced to leave Bosnia and former Yugoslavia because of Serbia crimes between WW1 and WW2 in Bosnia against them.
From history we also could see it in Circassians case during 17th and 19th Century, where many Muslim people who didn't want to live under Russian left theirs home and followed the retreat of Ottomans soldiers. Or maybe the case of Serbs who left their home in Kosovo after Turkey conquest their homeland.
Serbs who live in Bosnia are Bosnian. If you read history, they are Bosnian who still loyal to Orthodox Church during Turkish occupation. They became called Serbs because this religion affiliation and after nationalism came into this area. The same thing came with Bosnian Catholics, or Bosnian Croats.Than you have Serbia in Bosnia or Croatia
During Turkish rule, Bosnia divided according religion lines. Contrary, during the Habsburg rule it divided according nationality as Habsburg policy to keep their's south Slavic land. If you read history, you could see that Yugoslavia was an idea of Slovenian and Croatians who tried to free themselves from dominations of Austrians and Hungarians in austro-Hungary Empire.
About Nedic. I think his regime position have one important different with the NDH: while NDH was a free state, Nedic's Serbia was an occupied area. So, his government only a mouth-piece of Germans. BTW Serbia also have their's own fascist like Ljotics.
Best Regards,
Nino
Bless the people who like help others
- Allen Milcic
- Member
- Posts: 2903
- Joined: 09 Sep 2003, 21:29
- Location: Canada
Aside from the fact that killing is killing, and equally despicable no matter the reasons, it is also untrue that the NDH killed anybody as a "state policy". There was never a written government policy in Croatia to murder anybody, though this did not stop certain elements of the Ustasa militias from acts of brutality against Serbs and others.ninoo wrote: I agree with your point that Chetniks also killed thousands innocents people although as I have pointed there are many reasons behind it (some simply revenge, some have political motives, etc.) But Chetniks killing was not same with the Ustasha because the latter did as a state policy.
De jure, the NDH was a sovereign state while Nedic's caretaker government was at best a semi-autonomous entity. De facto, the Independent State of Croatia was under a state of occupation by both Italian and German troops, while the Pavelic government had about as much independence from German will as the Manchuko government did from the Japanese. Paper titles aside, the NDH was nothing but a puppet state, no better off than Nedic's Serbia.ninoo wrote:About Nedic. I think his regime position have one important different with the NDH: while NDH was a free state, Nedic's Serbia was an occupied area. So, his government only a mouth-piece of Germans. BTW Serbia also have their's own fascist like Ljotics.
Regards,
Allen/
Dear Friends,
Allen wrote:
BTW, I didn't want to offend you and other Croatians. I know majority Croatians during that time were anti-Ustasa (because PAvelic give Dalmatia to Italians) and pro-Macek's Peasant Party. Thus, I never identified Croatians as Ustasa.
The structure of the Nazi state and in particular Hitler's rare practice of arbitrary intervention in state affairs allowed Independent Croatia to persist in its genocidal efforts against the Serbs. Throughout 1941 and 1942, the Ustasa state disregarded German officials' protests against Serbian genocide, and these same officials possessed few effective means to compel Independent Croatia to follow German directives. http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m2082/ ... html?term=
German officials understood the destabilizing nature of the anti-Serb persecution and for this reason strongly opposed it. Opposition ran from Wehrmacht field units to the higher reaches of the German government and the Nazi Party.
German opposition to the Ustasa attacks on Serbs stemmed more from fear of disorder. Wehrmacht units blamed an uprising in Bosnia during July 1941 on "Ustasa atrocities."(9) A German diplomat in Independent Croatia, Herbert yon Troll, and the German military representative, Edmund Glaise yon Horstenau, feared that the atrocities created "tremendous amounts of incendiary material everywhere the Serbs live."(10) Glaise-Horstenau, a former Austro-Hungarian officer, believed Independent Croatia would fall into the "most severe insecurity" if the Ustasa tried to liquidate the Serb minority.(11) Even Heinrich Himmler, a man without qualms about mass murder, concluded that "t was a gross political error to think that one could exterminate two million Orthodox Serbs."(12)
German military officials proved powerless to stop the slaughter, and those expecting Hitler's support in doing so were disappointed. Not once during 1941 and 1942 did Hitler rebuke Independent Croatia for the disruption caused by its anti-Serb policies. Instead, he reiterated to Croatian leaders that Germany's interests were merely economic, and he was indifferent to Independent Croatia's treatment of its Serb minority. As the assault on Serbs gained momentum during the summer of 1941, Hitler compared it to the 1934 Blood Purge that had secured his own position, underscoring his poor understanding of the scale of the genocide and its potential for undermining order. Though ruthless in its own right, the Blood Purge was a violent political coup, not the liquidation of an ethnic minority. When General Paul Bader, the German commander in Bosnia, described the harmful effects of Ustasa atrocities during a July 1942 conference, Hitler declared, "I don't want to hear any more about it [persecution of the Serbs]."(13)
Through agreement with Independent Croatia, the Wehrmacht could declare a region plagued by unrest an Operationsgebiet (operational area), giving the German commander control over Ustasa units and Croatian authorities in the area. The declaration allowed the appointment of a Croatian "governmental plenipotentiary" for administration but prevented the plenipotentiary from acting in conflict with military necessities as determined by the German commander. One of these military necessities was the cessation of attacks on the Serbs. Officially, German officials possessed great authority in the Operationsgebiet, but in practice, their efforts failed after running headlong into a wall of Croatian obstruction.(17)
First, the Ustasas ignored restrictions on their activities in the Operationsgebiet and proceeded with the genocide, reflecting the tendency of the Croatian government "to say `yes' to everything [the Germans ask] and then do the opposite."(18)
Once again, I didn't want to offend you and other Croatians. (Please, pardon me if anybody offended by my letter) This is only pure historical argumentative. Maybe you have a counter for this thread, then I think everbody would gladly appreciate it to give us more knowledge...
Best Regards,
Bless the people who like help others.
Allen wrote:
Agree.Aside from the fact that killing is killing, and equally despicable no matter the reasons
Hitler also never give a written order for Final Solution....And how about Mile Budak speech?There was never a written government policy in Croatia to murder anybody,
BTW, I didn't want to offend you and other Croatians. I know majority Croatians during that time were anti-Ustasa (because PAvelic give Dalmatia to Italians) and pro-Macek's Peasant Party. Thus, I never identified Croatians as Ustasa.
Maybe it is true in other fields, but not in Ustasa' anti-Serbs policy. Check these quotes from "GERMAN COUNTERINSURGENCY POLICY IN INDEPENDENT CROATIA, 1941-1944" http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m2082/ ... html?term=:De facto, the Independent State of Croatia was under a state of occupation by both Italian and German troops, while the Pavelic government had about as much independence from German will as the Manchuko government did from the Japanese. Paper titles aside, the NDH was nothing but a puppet state, no better off than Nedic's Serbia.
The structure of the Nazi state and in particular Hitler's rare practice of arbitrary intervention in state affairs allowed Independent Croatia to persist in its genocidal efforts against the Serbs. Throughout 1941 and 1942, the Ustasa state disregarded German officials' protests against Serbian genocide, and these same officials possessed few effective means to compel Independent Croatia to follow German directives. http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m2082/ ... html?term=
German officials understood the destabilizing nature of the anti-Serb persecution and for this reason strongly opposed it. Opposition ran from Wehrmacht field units to the higher reaches of the German government and the Nazi Party.
German opposition to the Ustasa attacks on Serbs stemmed more from fear of disorder. Wehrmacht units blamed an uprising in Bosnia during July 1941 on "Ustasa atrocities."(9) A German diplomat in Independent Croatia, Herbert yon Troll, and the German military representative, Edmund Glaise yon Horstenau, feared that the atrocities created "tremendous amounts of incendiary material everywhere the Serbs live."(10) Glaise-Horstenau, a former Austro-Hungarian officer, believed Independent Croatia would fall into the "most severe insecurity" if the Ustasa tried to liquidate the Serb minority.(11) Even Heinrich Himmler, a man without qualms about mass murder, concluded that "t was a gross political error to think that one could exterminate two million Orthodox Serbs."(12)
German military officials proved powerless to stop the slaughter, and those expecting Hitler's support in doing so were disappointed. Not once during 1941 and 1942 did Hitler rebuke Independent Croatia for the disruption caused by its anti-Serb policies. Instead, he reiterated to Croatian leaders that Germany's interests were merely economic, and he was indifferent to Independent Croatia's treatment of its Serb minority. As the assault on Serbs gained momentum during the summer of 1941, Hitler compared it to the 1934 Blood Purge that had secured his own position, underscoring his poor understanding of the scale of the genocide and its potential for undermining order. Though ruthless in its own right, the Blood Purge was a violent political coup, not the liquidation of an ethnic minority. When General Paul Bader, the German commander in Bosnia, described the harmful effects of Ustasa atrocities during a July 1942 conference, Hitler declared, "I don't want to hear any more about it [persecution of the Serbs]."(13)
Through agreement with Independent Croatia, the Wehrmacht could declare a region plagued by unrest an Operationsgebiet (operational area), giving the German commander control over Ustasa units and Croatian authorities in the area. The declaration allowed the appointment of a Croatian "governmental plenipotentiary" for administration but prevented the plenipotentiary from acting in conflict with military necessities as determined by the German commander. One of these military necessities was the cessation of attacks on the Serbs. Officially, German officials possessed great authority in the Operationsgebiet, but in practice, their efforts failed after running headlong into a wall of Croatian obstruction.(17)
First, the Ustasas ignored restrictions on their activities in the Operationsgebiet and proceeded with the genocide, reflecting the tendency of the Croatian government "to say `yes' to everything [the Germans ask] and then do the opposite."(18)
Once again, I didn't want to offend you and other Croatians. (Please, pardon me if anybody offended by my letter) This is only pure historical argumentative. Maybe you have a counter for this thread, then I think everbody would gladly appreciate it to give us more knowledge...
Best Regards,
Bless the people who like help others.
Re: Serbia in cooperation with Axis during World War II
Hi, I know for some materials in connection with cooperation of the Serbs with Axis in WW2.
Former Prime Minister of Kingdom of Yugoslavia Dragisa Cvetkovic (imposed anti-semitic laws in Kingdom of Yugoslaavia and Hitler gave him a medal for that) and minister for foreign affairs of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia Aleksandar Markovic with Hitler in Berghof, Bavaria Germany.
Hitler with Serbian king Pavle/Paul
Antisemitism in Serbia and cooperation with Nazis
Serbian Prime Minister Milan Nedic visited Hitler, after total extermination of the Jewish population of Serbia.
https://tinyurl.com/y8csecm3
Konz. camps around Belgrade in WW2, where least 100 000 Jews and Gypsies were killed. Those sites were run by Serbs. All of them are even not marked today like sites where tens of thousands people were killed.
1. Banjica
2. Sajmiste
3. Topovske Supe (today shoping center Delta)
Former Prime Minister of Kingdom of Yugoslavia Dragisa Cvetkovic (imposed anti-semitic laws in Kingdom of Yugoslaavia and Hitler gave him a medal for that) and minister for foreign affairs of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia Aleksandar Markovic with Hitler in Berghof, Bavaria Germany.
Hitler with Serbian king Pavle/Paul
Antisemitism in Serbia and cooperation with Nazis
Serbian Prime Minister Milan Nedic visited Hitler, after total extermination of the Jewish population of Serbia.
https://tinyurl.com/y8csecm3
Konz. camps around Belgrade in WW2, where least 100 000 Jews and Gypsies were killed. Those sites were run by Serbs. All of them are even not marked today like sites where tens of thousands people were killed.
1. Banjica
2. Sajmiste
3. Topovske Supe (today shoping center Delta)
- G. Trifkovic
- Forum Staff
- Posts: 2293
- Joined: 06 Nov 2004, 20:26
- Location: The South-East
Re: Serbia in cooperation with Axis during World War II
Resurrecting this ancient thread with nothing more than sweeping generalizations and utter falsehoods will simply not do; thread locked.Loin wrote:Hi, I know for some materials in connection with cooperation of the Serbs with Axis in WW2.
Former Prime Minister of Kingdom of Yugoslavia Dragisa Cvetkovic (imposed anti-semitic laws in Kingdom of Yugoslaavia and Hitler gave him a medal for that) and minister for foreign affairs of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia Aleksandar Markovic with Hitler in Berghof, Bavaria Germany.
Hitler with Serbian king Pavle/Paul
Antisemitism in Serbia and cooperation with Nazis
Serbian Prime Minister Milan Nedic visited Hitler, after total extermination of the Jewish population of Serbia.
https://tinyurl.com/y8csecm3
Konz. camps around Belgrade in WW2, where least 100 000 Jews and Gypsies were killed. Those sites were run by Serbs. All of them are even not marked today like sites where tens of thousands people were killed.
1. Banjica
2. Sajmiste
3. Topovske Supe (today shoping center Delta)
G.