Polish soldiers in the Wehrmacht/Waffen-SS?

Discussions on the foreigners (volunteers as well as conscripts) fighting in the German Wehrmacht, those collaborating with the Axis and other period Far Right organizations. Hosted by George Lepre.
Artur Szulc
Member
Posts: 386
Joined: 23 Jul 2007 20:58
Location: Sweden

Re: Polish Volunteers In The Wehrmacht

Post by Artur Szulc » 16 Nov 2009 22:28

Able,

Your bring forward much information, but no sources. Or is this vet you refer to, your source?

This is one example:
A friend who served in the Polish 2nd Corps tells me, with considerable relish, how the Polish 2nd Corp machined gunned a lot of surrendering Wehrmacht Poles after they broke into Cassino, an understandable atrocity considering the number of their men who’d been killed or wounded by Wehrmacht Poles I suppose.
Is there any other evidence that this really happened?

Best regards,

Chili

Jan-Hendrik
Member
Posts: 8714
Joined: 11 Nov 2004 12:53
Location: Hohnhorst / Deutschland

Re: Polish Volunteers In The Wehrmacht

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 16 Nov 2009 23:07

Sounds rather like the category "nice stories"....

Jan-Hendrik

Artur Szulc
Member
Posts: 386
Joined: 23 Jul 2007 20:58
Location: Sweden

Re: Polish Volunteers In The Wehrmacht

Post by Artur Szulc » 17 Nov 2009 11:22

Able,

I am asking for evidence concerning the alleged Polish killing of surrendering Wehrmacht Poles after the 2nd Polish Corps took Cassino.

I have read Polish and German eyewitness accounts and the British investigation (can be found at Imperial War Museum) and those sources refute any killings or cutting of throats.

So I think it is just rumours.

Best regards,

Artur

Able
Member
Posts: 86
Joined: 15 Nov 2009 14:55

Re: Polish Volunteers In The Wehrmacht

Post by Able » 21 Nov 2009 08:21

Artur, why did you introduce 'cuttings of throats' please?
I made no mention of it.

You also changed the time at which our Poles machine gunned Nazi Poles.

I wrote after they broke in.

You changed it to 'after the 2nd Polish Corps took Cassino'.

Get real Artur.
Do you really believe that when a Nazi came out with his hands up calling out in Polish our Poles wouldn't have machine gunned him?

Get real Artur.
Do you really think our side would have found the evidence necessary to smear our Poles.

Get real Artur.
Do you really think our Poles didn't shoot up Nazi fliers when they parachuted from aircraft.

Get real Artur, do you think our side didn't commit spontaneous atrocities.

Anyhow, if you want to call a man who is held as a hero in his own country a liar on the basis of your ignorance and lack of research . . .

. . . it's your choice.

Even the Yanks who captured Nazis, hated Nazis even though they hadn’t had their homeland destroyed and their womenfolk raped by Nazis Artur.
It was because ‘. . . many of them have friend whom the Germans have captured, they don’t object to taking krauts alive. But they certainly feel that the prisoners, who should thank God and not their Fuehrer that they have been permitted to remain alive and breathe air which would be much purer without their presence, should remember they are enemies.‘
That’s a verbatim quote by the way Artur, so you can look it up, as you could look up most of the other points I made.
The Point about our Poles not taking Nazi Poles prisoner is what I have heard many times from a vet.
Take it . . .
. . . or tell me what excuse your imagination thought up for suggesting he would lie about it?

Able
Member
Posts: 86
Joined: 15 Nov 2009 14:55

Re: Polish Volunteers In The Wehrmacht

Post by Able » 21 Nov 2009 08:23

Thank you for enjoying my account Jan-Hendrik.

Have you read Wehrmacht by Wette yet?

Artur Szulc
Member
Posts: 386
Joined: 23 Jul 2007 20:58
Location: Sweden

Re: Polish Volunteers In The Wehrmacht

Post by Artur Szulc » 21 Nov 2009 11:12

Able, I do not know what your problem is. I do not have to belive anything just beacuse a vet tells me that Nazi Poles (what does that mean actually?) was machine gunned down. But who where these Nazi Poles?

You wrote after they broke in, do you mean into the monastery? The breaking into the monastery was quite undramatic.

You write of my ignorance and lack of research? But it is true, I do not trust a vet just beacuse he is a hero in Poland (oh, by the way, I was born in Szczecin, Poland). But I have not called no one a liar. I just do no see the evidence.

I have at home several eye witness accounts from the Sikorski-Institute in London, and no body mentions any killings of ”Nazi Poles”.

I have the after action report from the 2nd Polish Corps, and I can not recall that it mentions that Nazi Poles where defending Cassino nor where found among the dead.

Matthew Parker do not mention any killings in his book Monte Cassino (2003).

The British investigation (Imperial War Museum, Misc 113/1805) in the 80`s do not confirm any killings.

Again, you do not present evidence, only a emotional way of argumentation.
Best regards,

Artur

Able
Member
Posts: 86
Joined: 15 Nov 2009 14:55

Re: Polish Volunteers In The Wehrmacht

Post by Able » 21 Nov 2009 12:26

Any emotion I feel exists only in your mind Artur.
It's all history to me.

Your account of your research tells me that you suffer from selective perception.

I presented the vet's account as I heard it.

In the English Language, if you do not believe a man, you call him liar by implication.

In English English, the word 'nazi' in nazi Pole has the same meaning as 'nazi' in nazi Germany, nazi soldier, nazi aircraft, nazi pilot, nazi submarine, nazi attrocitiy, nazi death camp, nazi hausfrau, etc.
It means anyone or anything on Evil Adolph's side.

Ok, you were born in Poland Artur.
When?

What did you father and/or grandfather do during the war?
Which side were they on?

Able
Member
Posts: 86
Joined: 15 Nov 2009 14:55

Re: Polish Volunteers In The Wehrmacht

Post by Able » 21 Nov 2009 13:27


Artur Szulc
Member
Posts: 386
Joined: 23 Jul 2007 20:58
Location: Sweden

Re: Polish Volunteers In The Wehrmacht

Post by Artur Szulc » 21 Nov 2009 15:26

Able,

So how much research have you done to check that veterans claims?

No, I have not seen that vid that you have linked to. Does it bear on the subject at hand?

What my family did during the war is not important, but if you insist, my grandfather was send to the Reich as a forced laborer. My mothers aunt was sent to a camp in Germany and was not able to have children of her own after that experience.

I was born in 1976.

What does this have to do with anything?

Artur Szulc
Member
Posts: 386
Joined: 23 Jul 2007 20:58
Location: Sweden

Re: Polish Volunteers In The Wehrmacht

Post by Artur Szulc » 21 Nov 2009 19:20

Earlier this year when I visited the Archiwum Akt Nowych (Archive of New Records) I found this, which in one way is related to this thread:

Die Werbung der Polen zum Eintritt in die Wehrmacht

Enine grundlegende Anderung der deutschen Polenpolitik ist unbedingt der Versuch, die Polen zum freiwilligen Hilfsdienst ”mit der Waffe” innerhalb der deutschen Wehrmacht zu verwenden. Wenn diese Werbung bei dem polnischen Volke wirklichen Anklang finden würde, so könnte dieser Versuch zu einer generellen Erfassung der polnischen Bevölkerung zum Wehrdienst ausgebaut und erweitert werden. Es ist daher notwendig, die augenblickliche Stellungnahme der Polnischen Bevölkerung zu dieser Werbung zu überprüfen und festzustellen, ob sich überhaupt polnische Kreise finden, welche in Hinsicht der bolschewistischen Gefahr zu einer deutsch-polnischen Zusammenarbeit bereit sind.


(AAN 214, microfilm 2536/VII-2, frame 64)

My german is quite poor, but I do understand that it has something to do with Wehrmacht trying to recruit Poles against the Russians. The document says that a change in the attitudes towards the Polish people is needed if this recruiting experiment should have some results. Does it say the plan is to seek co-operation with certain Polish circles?

This text must be directed to Polish people living outside parts of Poland which was incorporated into the Reich. This means territories in the eastern parts and the GG.

Perhaps, somebody on the forum can translate it?

Best regards,

Chili (Artur)

jola
Member
Posts: 260
Joined: 15 Nov 2008 13:02
Location: Warsaw

Re: Polish Volunteers In The Wehrmacht

Post by jola » 21 Nov 2009 19:31

Informed estimates reckon around 500,000 Polish speakers surrendered to the Allies in 1945.
Were they ‘hiwis’ or conscripts.
Many other Poles served in the SS, as camp guards, or as civilian workers.
Able, it seems like you want to do some research and are interested in the subject, so maybe you could tells us how "many other Poles served in the SS."

Able
Member
Posts: 86
Joined: 15 Nov 2009 14:55

Re: Polish Volunteers In The Wehrmacht

Post by Able » 21 Nov 2009 20:51

Enine fundamental Anderung one of the German Poland politics is absolutely the attempt to use Poland to the voluntary emergency service” with the weapon” within the German armed forces. If this advertisement would meet with real approval with the Polish people, then this attempt could be developed and extended to a general collection of the Polish population to the military service. It is necessary to examine and determine the present/immediate statement of the Polish population to this advertisement, whether at all Polish circles are, which in regard of the bolschewistischen danger for a German-Polish co-operation is ready.

I think that you did not spell some German words correctly Artur

http://uk.babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_txt

Able
Member
Posts: 86
Joined: 15 Nov 2009 14:55

Re: Polish Volunteers In The Wehrmacht

Post by Able » 21 Nov 2009 21:06

I also would like to know how many Poles served in the SS Jola.

Perhaps you can do the research and tell me.
I suggest you research the files of the Underground Courts to start with.
I can't read Polish, so I am very restricted in the research I can do in that direction.

The only ones I know of, I came across by accident.

It seems most likely that neither of us will discover the exact number.
In many instances, they got new names.
Just as Germans who served with us got new IDs.

Artur Szulc
Member
Posts: 386
Joined: 23 Jul 2007 20:58
Location: Sweden

Re: Polish Volunteers In The Wehrmacht

Post by Artur Szulc » 21 Nov 2009 21:18

Here is a account from Jan Gazur born in Jablonkow in Schlesien (yes, I can spell Polish, but it is not relevant now).
According to him he was sent to the Italian front. In Polish:

Jak wojna wybuchła, byłem powołany do Wehr-machtu. Nie znałem niemieckiego, jedynie te wojskowe rozkazy. Ciężko było, ale jak był człowiek młody, to jakoś to szło raźniej. Moim przydziałem był pułk setny wysokogórski. Było nas trzech ze Śląska. Podoficer oświadczył, że jeden musi pójść na front. Wyjął trzy zapałki i w taki sposób, na pół żartowny ocknąłem się pod Monte Cassino.

17 maja 1944 roku udało mi się przedostać do atakujących wojsk polskich. Pędziłem i krzyczałem: "Dyć nie strzylejcie, jo Polok! Z Jabłonkowa!". Potem razem z nimi brałem udział w walkach. Pod rodzinną strzechę wróciłem 30 kwietnia 1947 roku. Nie żałuję do dzisiejszego dnia.

Quick translation:

When war broke out, I was enlisted to the Wehrmacht. I could not speak German, only understood those military orders. [...]
17 may 1944 I managed to get thru to the attacking Polish forces. I ran fast and shouted: Do not shoot, I am Polish. From Jablonkowa [it is written in dialect]. Then, I participated in the battles with them. [...]

http://wyborcza.pl/1,76842,5874639,Najl ... &startsz=x


Then we have this:http://www.wehrmacht-polacy.pl/biogramy.html

Ludwik Wojtkowiak

Ludwik Wojtkowiak (1920-1944), Ślązak, powołany do Wehrmachtu w 1942 r., służył w niemieckich jednostkach na froncie włoskim. Poległ w nieznanych okolicznościach 15 maja 1944 r. w rejonie Monte Cassino. Pochowany na niemieckim cmentarzu pod Monte Cassino.

The second sentence states that he was killed in the region of Monte Cassino, circumstances unknown. Perhaps he was killed by Polish soldiers. But that is impossible to determine.
So you see, Able, I do not belive everything I read, but I always try to check if there is truth in what people claims. I do not belive people just beacuse they are heroes.
Best regards
Artur

Able
Member
Posts: 86
Joined: 15 Nov 2009 14:55

Re: Polish Volunteers In The Wehrmacht

Post by Able » 21 Nov 2009 21:29

Artur, I told you the information and the source.

It's up to you to check it out.

It is what I said it was, a Polish vet's word.
Nothing more, nothing less.

The vet is an officer and a gentleman, an accepted as an international authority in other fields.
He has been awarded the Cross of the Resurrection of Poland, and gets a pension from the Polish State.
He fought the Waffen SS during the rising.
He was flown out to meet the Polish President recently.
Despite his advancing years, he still has all his marbles.

I suggest you ask yourself why he should make up that the Allied Poles machined gunned surrendering nazi Poles at Casino?

The vid bears on the subject in hand.
The information in the vid was available to Allied Poles, although not the pics.
The information in that vid influenced the Allied Poles in their hatred for Nazis, and especially Allied Nazis.

The information about your family's suffering is valuable to me when I answer your questions.
Your age also helps, although I can't recal asking you about it.
Did I ask?

Return to “Foreign Volunteers & Collaboration”