Polish soldiers in the Wehrmacht/Waffen-SS?

Discussions on the foreigners (volunteers as well as conscripts) fighting in the German Wehrmacht, those collaborating with the Axis and other period Far Right organizations. Hosted by George Lepre.
Artur Szulc
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Location: Sweden

Re: Polish Volunteers In The Wehrmacht

Post by Artur Szulc » 21 Nov 2009 21:32

One good homepage that tries to research Poles (or rather those who according to German standards could be regarded as Volksdeutsche, like Poles from Pommern, Schlesien, and Grosspolen) is this one:

http://www.wehrmacht-polacy.pl/index.html

On Poles in Waffen-SS:

http://www.wehrmacht-polacy.pl/wcielenia_waffen.html

According to that article there are interesting sources that states that there where Poles or Poles of German origin that served in different Waffen-SS formations, like 1. SS-Panzerdivision "Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler" and 12. SS-Panzerdivision "Hitlerjugend". But the document that is presented on the homepage tells us about Ukrainians, Czechs and Poles.

Marc J. Rikmenspoel writes in his Waffen-SS: The Encyclopedia: "Individual Poles ended up in the Waffen-SS, though usually as nominal ethnic Germans or ethnic Ukrainians."

He also writes that: "Some of the volunteers for the 14th Waffen-Grenadier Division were almost certainly ethnic Poles..."

But Rikmenspoel does not provide any sources, so his statements can not be checked.

Best regards,

Artur

Able
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Re: Polish Volunteers In The Wehrmacht

Post by Able » 21 Nov 2009 21:37

Is it important to respect people's opinions Artur?

The vet has an opinion.
I gave my opinion by implication on his opinion.

I gave them as part of a complex answer to an even more complex question.

Artur Szulc
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Posts: 386
Joined: 23 Jul 2007 20:58
Location: Sweden

Re: Polish Volunteers In The Wehrmacht

Post by Artur Szulc » 21 Nov 2009 21:40

Able,
Artur, I told you the information and the source.

It's up to you to check it out.

It is what I said it was, a Polish vet's word.
Nothing more, nothing less.
But the thing is that research does not work that way. If you are sincere, which I think you are, it is your job to check what people say to you - not just take their word for it. My Good, I know how difficult it can be to listen to a War hero, or War participant, and ask him or her, critical questions. It is not easy, belive me, I know.

So, it is not up to me to check it for you. You provided information, that is correct and I challenged them. Then it is up to you to proof that what the vet told you is true, looking for other sources which can confirm what he said.

I am not being disrespectful or a pompous loud mouth who thinks he knows it all, on the contrary in fact.

Cheers,

Artur

Artur Szulc
Member
Posts: 386
Joined: 23 Jul 2007 20:58
Location: Sweden

Re: Polish Volunteers In The Wehrmacht

Post by Artur Szulc » 21 Nov 2009 21:42

Is it important to respect people's opinions Artur?

The vet has an opinion.
I gave my opinion by implication on his opinion.

I gave them as part of a complex answer to an even more complex question.
That I respect, but I do not have to belive him until other sources can confirm it.

And you are absolutely right, it is a complex question which needs to be properly examined.

Best regards,
Artur

Able
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Re: Polish Volunteers In The Wehrmacht

Post by Able » 21 Nov 2009 22:10

Accordingly, Adolph said that nazi Poles must be scattered in 2s, 3s and 4s through different units.
He would not allow a Polish unit.
He had a very low opinion of Poles.

Judging by the number of Nazi Poles taken POW at the end of the war, there were around 150,000 groups of Poles scattered through the Wehrmacht.

I think that the identification of ethnic German Poles was very flexible Artur.
Tony Kushek told me he was recruited as an ethnic German, volksdeutch.
Despite that he was short, and looked typically Polish.
He was an ethnic German, because he lived near the border, and not surprisingly, spoke German.

The nazis needed cannon fodder, so they recruited hard throughout occupied Europe, they weren't fussy.

Able
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Re: Polish Volunteers In The Wehrmacht

Post by Able » 21 Nov 2009 22:36

Artur, you knew from the outset that I told what a vet told me.

I do not need to prove he said it, or that what he said it true.

It is up to you to prove or disprove to your own satisfaction his statement that Allied Poles machine gunned surrendering nazi Poles.

I've never had any problem listening to vets Artur.
Nor leading them to tell me what they wish to tell me.
Asking leading questions probably isn't my way though, most prefer not to discuss their nightmares and, therefore, need a considerable amount of encouragement.

The wife of more than 50 years of one allied Pole I debriefed didn't know he had served in the Wehrmacht.
It was not something he spoke about.
He was at Cassino, but was badly injured before the final assault.
He was driver, he drove a doctor, a shell splattered his friend the doctor all over him , and seriously injured him.
He had nightmares about it until his death about 5 years ago.

Perhaps that's why it's difficult to ask direct questions.

Able
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Re: Polish Volunteers In The Wehrmacht

Post by Able » 22 Nov 2009 00:38

I reckon you are not a scientist or a theorist Artur.

Am I correct please?

Artur Szulc
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Posts: 386
Joined: 23 Jul 2007 20:58
Location: Sweden

Re: Polish Volunteers In The Wehrmacht

Post by Artur Szulc » 22 Nov 2009 10:13

I reckon you are not a scientist or a theorist Artur.

Am I correct please?
No, but neither are you, I guess.

So?

I have a simple MA i history. I have published two books (a third will be published by Norstedts, a big Swedish publishing house, next year.) and three articles in a Swedish magazine called, in english, the Pen&Sword (for members of Swedish Military Library (its more a bookclub then a library with over 20 000 members) and one article in a norwegian magazine called Militaryhistory.

So, one can say that I am a happy amateur :)

Best regards,

Chili
(Artur Szulc)
Last edited by Artur Szulc on 22 Nov 2009 12:04, edited 1 time in total.

jola
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Location: Warsaw

Re: Polish Volunteers In The Wehrmacht

Post by jola » 22 Nov 2009 11:54

I also would like to know how many Poles served in the SS Jola.

Perhaps you can do the research and tell me.
No, that's not how it works; you said many. Where did you get this and what does it mean? It is a ridiculous statistic and even more so opinion. A feeling you have perhaps?
The only ones I know of, I came across by accident.
That's obvious. You have done no research at all; you have chatted with a war vet and that's all. He may be telling the truth or he may be not. You just don't know, because you have nothing to verify his statements.

Able
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Re: Polish Volunteers In The Wehrmacht

Post by Able » 22 Nov 2009 12:33

Jola, what a tiresome little chap you can be.

'Many other Poles served in the SS, as camp guards, or
as civilian workers.'
I accept that English is designed to bewilder users, but you have no excuse for not reading the whole sentence.

Is it possible that you don't understand what the words 'or' and 'and' mean Jola?

What makes you even more tiresome is that you blow the vet's opinion out of all proportion, and ignored the rest.

I stated from the outset that I repeated what a vet told me.
I left you to assess what he said.

I chose not to produce any supporting evidence.
I left it to you to investigate rather than trying to lift the roof of your head in order to pour knopwledge in.

So get off you backside and investigate.
Or drink up your beer, get on your horse, and get out of town.

Unless I find your next offering stimulating Jola, I will ignore it.

Able
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Posts: 86
Joined: 15 Nov 2009 14:55

Re: Polish Volunteers In The Wehrmacht

Post by Able » 22 Nov 2009 12:37

Artur, I posted a response to your letter that started 'No, but neither are you, I guess.'

It has got lost.

I will give it a bit to turn up, if it doesn't, I'll pen another.

Artur Szulc
Member
Posts: 386
Joined: 23 Jul 2007 20:58
Location: Sweden

Re: Polish Volunteers In The Wehrmacht

Post by Artur Szulc » 22 Nov 2009 12:59

Able,

Do you belive what the vet told you?

If yes, then tell us why.
If no, then explain why.

On AHF it is courtesy to make all kinds of statements and, if challenged, present evidence for them.

Otherwise it is for the best if you give your perception of the vets story and tell us how you interpret that story and why.

It is not apropriate to write something like: "All Red Army-soldiers raped German women" and then demand from the AHF-members to investigate that statement and test its accurancy. That is not how things work.

I have understood that you only repeat what the vet told you, but if that is the case, then why, judging by your reactions to both my and Jolas comments, are you so argumentative? If you only repeat what the vet told you, and dont have any interpretations of what he said, then you should be quite neutral, but you are not.

Best regards,
Artur

Able
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Posts: 86
Joined: 15 Nov 2009 14:55

Re: Polish Volunteers In The Wehrmacht

Post by Able » 22 Nov 2009 13:01

You tell me by implication that you see yourself as an unhappy expert Artur.

I must accept your theory.
I then get to chose between researching it and publishing my results, or leaving it to stand as a theory until someone researches and validates it or comes up with an alternative theory.
Eventually, your theory may or may not become a Law.

That's what international protocol expects of a scientist or theorist.
That is to accept without criticism, and then research.

For the time being, I accept your theory even though it's not one I like, but keep an open mind.

Yes, it would have been nice for you if I had published chapter and verse.

If I had published chapter and verse,
Would I have directed your research?
Or just given you the chance to destroy my research?

In the event, I chose to scatter some "seed" on this site Artur.

I left it to you to leave it on barren ground, or to cultivate it.
You, so far, choose one seed, and cultivate it a little.
But you leave the others on barren ground.

Incidentally, I planted a number of weeds in my original answer.
You may wish to weed them out.

You may also wish to revalue your guess.

Able
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Posts: 86
Joined: 15 Nov 2009 14:55

Re: Polish Volunteers In The Wehrmacht

Post by Able » 22 Nov 2009 13:13

Artur. I already answered your first question, and gave my reasons.

Why do you think it's courteous to challenge someone who gives his opinion in answer to a question Artur?

Exactly where have I demanded that members research Artur?

I don't accept that I am argumentative Artur.
I think you should examine the mote in your own eye.

'Argumentative questions do not seek to establish additional facts or check the reliability of existing facts. Instead, they are meant only to cause a witness to argue with the examiner'

I am the witness.
You are the examiner.

Artur Szulc
Member
Posts: 386
Joined: 23 Jul 2007 20:58
Location: Sweden

Re: Polish Volunteers In The Wehrmacht

Post by Artur Szulc » 22 Nov 2009 13:28

Able,

Thank you for your answers.

There are many synonyms for the word "opinion", like view, feeling, sentiment, conviction and others. I rarely argue with people when they tell me that in their "opinion" the car Toyota Auris is ugly in comparison with the Volvo XC90. That is a issue of no importance to most people since it is a matter of no public concern. I like this car and you like that car! No big deal.

But when it comes to political, historical, cultural, economical questions, one is expected to be able to present arguments based on some kind of evidence that can be investigated. To me, just to give a opinion that, for example, every Red Army-soldier raped German women is a worthless opinion or conviction. Beacuse it is based on emotional arguments, prejudice and perhaps, rasism.

I think that you are sincere and a person who can give us important facts concerning Poles in the Wehrmacht since you have contacts with Polish vets. I just hope that you someday present to us your research along with facts and sources. That would be a great achivement.

I have understood that you can not read polish. Perhaps I can help you, if there is something you need translated.

----------------
Exactly where have I demanded that members research Artur?
You wrote to Jola that he should get of his backside and investigate. Was not that a demand?


Best regards,
Artur

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