Polish soldiers in the Wehrmacht/Waffen-SS?

George Lepre · Post by **George Lepre** » 26 Jul 2004 00:35

Hi Everyone -

There is evidence that the SS may have examined the idea of raising a Polish formation and negotiated with at least one Polish nationalist. Here is where to find the information:

In the National Archives, go to Records Group 242, Microcopy T-175. These are the microfilmed records of the "Reich Leader of the SS and German Police," i.e. Himmler. Here are the exact citations:

T-175, Microfilm Roll 22: "Polish Legion"

T-175, Microfilm Roll 33: (Contains material on Polish "collaborators.")

Similarly, there is a report on SS contacts with a Czech nationalist named Emil Fikacek on Roll 53.

I have not seen this material personally, but it may contain some relevant material.

Hi Tom_Deba: Do you live near Warsaw? Have you ever been to the Polish military archives?

Best regards,

George Lepre

tom_deba · Post by **tom_deba** » 26 Jul 2004 11:45

I do not live near Warsaw but I was in Centralne Archiwum Wojskowe (CAW-military archives) in Rembertów several times. It is very difficult to copy material or conduct research because these archives are still "Festung" for researchers. the personnel is ridicolous.

Tom Stahler · Post by **Tom Stahler** » 26 Jul 2004 15:50

What about Boleslaw Piasecki and other polish ?

May we have informations about the question of a polish legion or a polish collaborationnist governement ?

tom_deba · Post by **tom_deba** » 26 Jul 2004 18:09

Piasecki was not active during occupation. Personally I don't know why. His point of view was fascist. Other people are difficult to recognize and prove. Unfortunately many facts and documents has been distroyed during the war and after.

One fact has to be underlined. Polish NSZ - National Armed Forces - has established the link with Germans in order to equip Swietokrzyska Brigade (Brygada Swietokrzyska) to fight against Russians. Brigade was withdrawn to the west of Poland with Germans help, but this attempt was not realized completely.

There was no attempt made by Germans to establish Polish collaborationnist goverment.

mietek · Post by **mietek** » 27 Jul 2004 23:10

"blue police" was not new organization, but based on pre-war Polish police.
Of course part of them work with Germans, other help to Polish Home Army, some were even killed by Polish underground because of too close cooperatin with Germans.
They were for police duties, not for front line combat like waffen SS.

best, mietek

Petrus · Post by **Petrus** » 28 Jul 2004 10:54

Bolesław Piasecki

Piasecki was not active during occupation. Personally I don't know why.

Personally I have no idea why you don't know what is generally known that Bolesław Piasecki* was quite active during the war. What is more, his activities were unmistakably anti-German.

He formed an undergroud political organisation named "Konfederacja Narodu" (Confederation of the Nation) whose armed arm titled "Uderzeniowe Bataliony Kadrowe" (Strike Cadre Battalions) - can you believe this? - fought against Germans in the eastern part of Poland.

Frankly speaking, it is ridiculous to hint that he might be a Polish Quisling.

Indeed, after the war Piasecki collaborated with the communist regime in Poland (if not Soviet inteligence), but this is another story.

* By the outbreak of the WW2 Bolesław Piasecki was a leader of the Falanga movement. They designated themselves radical-nationalist, and were fundamentalist Catholics as well. It's risky to label them 'fascists', unless you use the term as an invective.

'Polish Legion'

As I know, in 1944 Germans tried to start recruitment. Thankfully, not much than three hundred men volunteered. The number was disappointing for the Germans who had thougth - as you do - that "There were lots of people who would have enlisted to such unit". They were wrong and so are you. The quality of men who had enlisted was even worse than the number - they were mainly criminals or other off-scourings of society. All that led Germans to abandon the project.

Blue Police

Having conquered Poland Germans retained there several civil institutions and services, which cannot be regarded as anything strange in such circumstances. Of course, the institutions were in one way on another under German control.
The so called 'Blue Police' (the nick-name came from a colour of their uniforms which was dark blue) was nothing else than pre-war Polish police (their pre-war official title had been 'Policja Państwowa', lit. 'State Police'). Under German rule they did have normal police tasks, from traffic control to ordinary crime prevention and persecution etc. Germans, indeed, tried to use the police as an auxiliary force of occupation, but they were actually useless as such.
For instance, when in 1943 Germans required the Blue Police to take part in suppression of the uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto, Polish commanding officers explicitly rejected the request (quite possilbly what they did reject had not been a mere request but an order, so they risked quite much). The Blue Police showed such a reluctance to work for Germans that they had no other option than to send in to Poland their own police forces (Kripo, Orpo, Schupo, Sipo); as far as I know there was no other country in occupied Europe where Germany had their own police forces (save the Gestapo of course).

And finally, this may be of interest either that many (possibly vast majority) Blue-policemen were in fact members of "Państwowy Korpus Bezpieczeństwa" (State Corps of Security) i.e. a police formation subordinated to authorities of the Polish underground state (and the Polish government in exile).

Best regards,
Petrus

Tom Stahler · Post by **Tom Stahler** » 28 Jul 2004 10:56

I believe that Vladislav Strudniski had proposed to the Germans to lead a collaborationnist government and that Boleslaw Piasecki had proposed to create a polish brigade. But the Germans refused.

Tom Stahler · Post by **Tom Stahler** » 28 Jul 2004 11:02

He formed an undergroud political organisation named "Konfederacja Narodu" (Confederation of the Nation) whose armed arm titled "Uderzeniowe Bataliony Kadrowe" (Strike Cadre Battalions) - can you believe this? - fought against Germans in the eastern part of Poland.

Absolutely true but in 1939-1940 Piasecki proposed his services to the german army. As the germans refused, Piasecki passed to resistance. And that is what Petrus says.

The fact that the polish fascists passed to resistance is the consequence of the antislavic and antipolish behaviour of the nazis chiefs.

Petrus · Post by **Petrus** » 28 Jul 2004 12:56

I believe that Vladislav Strudniski had proposed to the Germans to lead a collaborationnist government and that Boleslaw Piasecki had proposed to create a polish brigade. But the Germans refused.

For we all live in the free world you may believe in what you want to, even in that Earth is flat.

Let's put beliefs aside and get back to the facts:

In autumn of 1939 Piasecki was arrested by the Gestapo and then was being held at the Pawiak prison in Warsaw. After some time (I cannot recall now how long he was there) the Italian government intervened in his favour and he was released. Of course, Piasecki did have friends amongst Italian fascists (not only there did he have friends: there was a friendly relationship between the Piasecki's Falanga and a Zionist organisation led by Włodzimierz Żabotyński), so their help might have been inspired by ideology indeed.
However it should be kept in mind that in this particular period (1939-1940) Italy for some reasons tried to ease a burden of the German occupation of Poland. It was Mussolini himself whose intervention helped in release of professors of the Jagiellonian University of Kraków who had been arrested by Germans in October 1939 and sent to concentration camps. Nobody mentally sane would conclude for such a reason that the professors were fascist. They were not, of course. By the way, not only was it all before Italy entered the war (June 1940) but there was never a state of war between Italy and Poland.

in 1939-1940 Piasecki proposed his services to the german army.

Really? Undoubtly you must have been there when he was making such proposals. Could you share your knowledge with us, please? When? Where? How? What? Why? Apparently you know something that all other people do not even imagine. So go on, it may be fascinating.

As the germans refused, Piasecki passed to resistance.

If I understand correctly your way of thinking you visualise there was so:

Piasecki: - Dearest Germans, I really want to serve you. Please, please let me be a soldier of your great army! Perhaps I would form even a brigade of my camerads? Anyway, Heil Hitler!!!
Germans: - Piss off, Piasecki, we don't need you. You might be our prisoner not soldier.
Piasecki: - What? You don't need ME!!!??? So I will fight you!!! Hitler kaputt! Long live Poland!

Don't you think this makes absolutely no sense?

And that is what Petrus says.

Petrus says what he says.

Howgh!
Petrus

Askold · Post by **Askold** » 28 Jul 2004 17:33

You also forgot about Bahnschutz (railway gards). I came across some info about poles in SS in one of military publications. I'll look for it.

Tom Stahler · Post by **Tom Stahler** » 28 Jul 2004 19:34

Petrus,

Des sympathisants nazis, regroupés sous le sigle NOR, voulurent pourtant, dès octobre 1939, former un corps polonais de la Wehrmacht. B. Piasecki, chef de la Phalange d'avant-guerre, ou V. Studnicki tentèrent sans succès de créer des formations auxiliaires des Allemands.

in "Histoire de la Pologne", by Daniel Beauvois

Ce rôle échut à B. Piasecki, un ancien responsable de la Falanga fascisante de l'ONR avant 1939, mystérieusement "retourné" en 1945 par le général soviétique Serov.

Indeed, the polish fascists were ready to collaborate with nazis but the german massive repression against the Poles made most of them resistants.

Hans Kloss · Post by **Hans Kloss** » 30 Jul 2004 19:43

Askold wrote:You also forgot about Bahnschutz (railway gards). I came across some info about poles in SS in one of military publications. I'll look for it.

Poles from areas incorporated into Reich (Pomerania, Silesia and most of Poznan area) were conscripted from 1942/3 to serve in German Army.I have not come across any information on Polish volunteers in SS which would apply to ethnic Poles.

henryk · Post by **henryk** » 30 Jul 2004 21:21

This topic was partially covered in:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... highlight=
I repeat part of a messge by me:
An excellent book covering also collaborators in Poland is: POLAND’’S HOLOCAUST, by Tadeusz Piotrowski,1998.
On participation in the Waffen-SS by ethnic Poles (p84-5):

One weakly documented instance of Poles serving in the Waffen-SS can be found in Jerzy Turonek’’s otherwise well-documented work dealing with Belorussia under the German occupation. According to Turonek, Oberstrumbannfuhrer Siegling’’s 30. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (russiche Nr. 2), organized in 1944, consisted of predominantly Belorussians but had ““quite a few Russians, Poles, Ukrainians and others”” within their ranks.
Interestingly, neither George Stein nor Gerald Reitlinger nor even The Oxford Companion to World War II, published in 1995, mentions Poles as belonging to the 30th or to any other SS division. Judging from their desertion, perhaps these Poles were not volunteers.

Instances of collaboration with Germans by the AK, NSZ and AL. are also discussed.

Allen Milcic · Post by **Allen Milcic** » 30 Jul 2004 22:32

Hello:

This is an excerpt from the THE ABBAYE ARDENNE CASE
TRIAL OF S.S. BRIGADEFUHRER KURT MEYER (all emphasis mine):

"The fourth of the witnesses referred to, Jan Jesionek, a Polish youth who had been conscripted into the 12th S.S. Panzer Division, told how the accused had made a speech at Le Sap, in which he had said that the German soldiers should take reprisals on prisoners of war."

The entire case can be seen here:

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/WCC/meyer.htm# ... ROSECUTION

I think this speaks for the argument that there were some Poles in the Wehrmacht in general, and the Waffen SS in particular.

Regards,
Allen/

Hans Kloss · Post by **Hans Kloss** » 30 Jul 2004 23:35

"The fourth of the witnesses referred to, Jan Jesionek, a Polish youth who had been conscripted into the 12th S.S. Panzer Division, told how the accused had made a speech at Le Sap, in which he had said that the German soldiers should take reprisals on prisoners of war."

Surely but these people were drafted often against their will.Many of them deserted and later fought in ranks of Polish 1st and 2nd Corps.

One weakly documented instance of Poles serving in the Waffen-SS can be found in Jerzy Turonek’’s otherwise well-documented work dealing with Belorussia under the German occupation. According to Turonek, Oberstrumbannfuhrer Siegling’’s 30. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (russiche Nr. 2), organized in 1944, consisted of predominantly Belorussians but had ““quite a few Russians, Poles, Ukrainians and others”” within their ranks.
Interestingly, neither George Stein nor Gerald Reitlinger nor even The Oxford Companion to World War II, published in 1995, mentions Poles as belonging to the 30th or to any other SS division. Judging from their desertion, perhaps these Poles were not volunteers.

I'm only guessing here...these few being referred as Poles could have been Ukrainians or Byelorussia's from Eastern part of Poland but again that's just a guess.

Instances of collaboration with Germans by the AK, NSZ and AL. are also discussed.

That could be a subject of seperated thread.Yes,there were contacs and talks but under very different circumstances.