Tibetan Volunteers in the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS

Discussions on the foreigners (volunteers as well as conscripts) fighting in the German Wehrmacht, those collaborating with the Axis and other period Far Right organizations. Hosted by George Lepre.
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Uninen
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Post by Uninen » 07 Mar 2005 20:58

Well of the Tibetian Battalion i do not know, but from the Article in feldgrau it is said that even from Caucasus more than 100 000 served in different units of German Armed Forces including Waffen-SS and many of those id figure are "Asian" (on a way or in other) also in those around 1 000 000 "Russian" POWs that served in German Armed Forces there must have been lots of Mongols, Siberians and such..

And no i dont now have any accurate figures about the numbers of "Asians only" and i do know what Panzermahn is up to but then again some people here at this topic have been bit too harsh and posess their own bias as strong as him, only to the opposite, and the truth usually is somewhere in the middle..

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Uninen

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dm14
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Tibetan Volunteers in the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS

Post by dm14 » 07 Mar 2005 21:24

Greetings to everyone - this is my first post.
It seems that many of you haven't yet read the very interesting book "The east came west - Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist volunteers in the german armed forces 1941-1945" edited by Antonio J. Munoz. In it there are exact figures and bibliography about the hundreds of thousand of the collaborators from Asia. There are also some very interesting photos of asians in their colourful outfits that fought hardly side by side with the germans.
If you need further info ,i could elaborate .

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Exxley
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Post by Exxley » 07 Mar 2005 21:26

Uninen wrote:
the truth usually is somewhere in the middle..
well, then lets settle for 60 Tibetan soldiers defending Berlin ? Or 120 ? Sorry but that kind of new age like statement is hardly enough when it comes to historical matters and proofs.

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Allen Milcic
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Re: Tibetan Volunteers in the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS

Post by Allen Milcic » 07 Mar 2005 21:48

dm14 wrote:Greetings to everyone - this is my first post.
It seems that many of you haven't yet read the very interesting book "The east came west - Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist volunteers in the german armed forces 1941-1945" edited by Antonio J. Munoz. In it there are exact figures and bibliography about the hundreds of thousand of the collaborators from Asia. There are also some very interesting photos of asians in their colourful outfits that fought hardly side by side with the germans.
If you need further info ,i could elaborate .
Hello dm14, and welcome to the Forum.

I believe that the point being made here is not that there were no "Asians" serving in or alongside the Wehrmacht, but rather that outlandish and unsupported silliness like the "battalion of Tibetans fighting in Berlin" is both irritating and has dubious political connotations.

Best regards,
Allen/

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redcoat
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Post by redcoat » 07 Mar 2005 22:50

Panzermahn wrote:
Rob - WSSOB wrote:Jochim, it's a myth.
No, it's not. A Spanish SS veteran (member of the Einsatzgruppe Ezquerra and fought in the Battle of Berlin) who is still living recently informed Ostuf Charlemagne and me that he remembered a Russian battalion (with Siberian's and most probably tibetan) that fought and were destroyed in Berlin
I take it you didn't study geography at school 'Panzermahn.
Otherwise you would realise that Tibet is hundreds of miles away from Siberia.
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Uninen
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Post by Uninen » 08 Mar 2005 00:08

Exxley wrote:Uninen wrote:
the truth usually is somewhere in the middle..
well, then lets settle for 60 Tibetan soldiers defending Berlin ? Or 120 ? Sorry but that kind of new age like statement is hardly enough when it comes to historical matters and proofs.
Michael Kenny wrote:I think the reasoning behind all these 'Asians in the SS' threads is to try and portray the SS as some multi-ethnic, volunteer and anti-communist crusading army.
This sort of rubbish is a regular topic on far right forums and is the fig leaf they need to counter the tales of SS brutality. I am afraid we are to hear it repeated at regular intervals.
Exxley wrote:Michael wrote:
I think the reasoning behind all these 'Asians in the SS' threads is to try and portray the SS as some multi-ethnic, volunteer and anti-communist crusading army.
This sort of rubbish is a regular topic on far right forums and is the fig leaf they need to counter the tales of SS brutality. I am afraid we are to hear it repeated at regular intervals.
Yup. Same argument have been used by Confederate lovers, Lost Causers when dealing with Black Confederate soldiers. From a handful of reliable accounts, dealing with really low numbers, you can now find figures up to 100 000 afro-american soldiers in the CSA.

Here, you got a non-confirmed source about 2 possible Tibetan soldiers, and it soon turned out, according to another non-confirmed source, that there were enough Tibetan soldiers to fill up the roster of many companies. Some battalion/regiment strenght units are on the way for sure.
Uninen wrote:and i do know what Panzermahn is up to but then again some people here at this topic have been bit too harsh and posess their own bias as strong as him, only to the opposite
:roll:

And Allen,

The point that few here it seems are trying to make is that SS ( / Wehrmacht ) wasnt some multi-ethnic, volunteer and anti-communist crusading army that had any Asians or "untermensch" in it..

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dm14
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Tibetan Volunteers in the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS

Post by dm14 » 08 Mar 2005 00:50

Hello Allen,
thank you for giving me the chance for further clarification of my previous post:
1) I believe that my command of the english language is adequate enough to allow me to grasp the meaning of the posts on the issue discussed here.
2) From the book "The east came west", chapter 8 "Followers of the Greater Way : Kalmuck volunteers in the german army 1942- 1945" :
"The kalmucks ...lived in Zungaria in Northeastern TIBET...Migrated to the Volga Steppes a little before 1700 in response to a chinese invitation...so the resistance of the Kazaks was weakened by this migration"
"In september 1942 25 defense units of 100 men each were organised throughout the Kalmuck region".
During the course of war the Kalmuck volunteers formed the Kalmuck Legion (August 1942), then the Kalmucken Verband Dr. Doll(January 1943),then the Kalmucken Kavallerie Korps (August 1943-January 1945) and there were plans of including the remaining volunteers into the Kaukasicher Waffen Verband der SS.
I could go on, but , i think that these people were Tibetans and some of them may have ended in Berlin withdrawing with the Germans ,trying to avoid the Red Army.
Best
Dimitrios

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Exxley
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Post by Exxley » 08 Mar 2005 01:09

dm14 wrote:
"The kalmucks ...lived in Zungaria in Northeastern TIBET...Migrated to the Volga Steppes a little before 1700 in response to a chinese invitation...so the resistance of the Kazaks was weakened by this migration"
Ok so did those people consider themselves as Tibetan during the 1930-40s ? I highly doubt so. Did anyone think of those people as Tibetan citizens in 1945 ? I highly doubt so.

Uninen wrote:
The point that few here it seems are trying to make is that SS ( / Wehrmacht ) wasnt some multi-ethnic, volunteer and anti-communist crusading army that had any Asians or "untermensch" in it..
wrong chap. People genuinely interested in WW2 history knows about the fact that the Germans tried (and rather failed) to exploit the real anti-communist beliefs of many people from the many Soviet Union's nationalities. People seriously interested in WW2 history also knows that the Heer/SS was hardly the best example of successful melting-pot. Its one thing to recruit people to compensate a growing lack of manpower. Its another thing to consider those people as equal (hence the unreliability of the Handschar for instance).

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Uninen
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Post by Uninen » 08 Mar 2005 01:25

You dont need to "teach" me, i know all of that, and what wonders me is that you seem to also know what your saying so why are you playing it down? For me 1 000 000 Soviet POWs serving in German Armed Forces talks of volumes about the matter, so i wouldnt call their melting-pot unsuccesful either..

Its true that they could and maybe should have done many things differently and left certain things undone, but then again they did not..

Also, dont chap me pal. And you dont know anything of my interests it seems so its better you dont talk of them nor about me, thank you.

Regards
Uninen

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Exxley
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Post by Exxley » 08 Mar 2005 01:37

Uninen wrote:
You dont need to "teach" me, i know all of that, and what wonders me is that you seem to also know what your saying so why are you playing it down?
So asking for some reliable sources about the so-called Tibetan forces is playing down the overall figures. Never thought about that one.
Its true that they could and maybe should have done many things differently and left certain things undone, but then again they did not..
In other words, the Wehrmacht was hardly the United Colors of Benetton army of that time precisely because of those certain things.

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Post by Uninen » 08 Mar 2005 02:29

Exxley wrote:So asking for some reliable sources about the so-called Tibetan forces is playing down the overall figures. Never thought about that one.
No nor did I ever claim there were any, but the tone of your and Michaels post was such that it seems that your trying to make it seem that werent any ASIANs at all in the German Forces when infact there was plenty.
In other words, the Wehrmacht was hardly the United Colors of Benetton army of that time precisely because of those certain things.
Over 1 million people they consider as subhuman served in their armed forces, including Asians and in ranks of some of their "allies" namely Finland there were even Jews and Gypsies fighting Germanys war as some here put it..

World isnt black and white. I hope you can see it.

Regards
Uninen

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Post by George Lepre » 08 Mar 2005 02:46

Keep the discussion civil, guys.

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Post by Panzermahn » 08 Mar 2005 10:26

Uninen:

Kindly define the term "lots", and provide some reliable numbers on the "volunteers from Turkey" that served in the Wehrmacht.

As for BS - we now aparently have a phantom battalion of "Tibetans and Siberians" fighting to the death in Berlin for the greater glory of the Reich. What's next, Waffen SS regiments of Lilipudlians?

Allen/
Hi Panzermahn .


I’ve been following –at your request – your topic about “tibetans” in Berlin .

I’m quite stunned to see that “politicaly correct “ readers are trying (as they usually do in the Lounge of the War Crimes section ) to politicize a thread which is (or should be ) historical only .In doing so they are making a great damage to the many young members of this forum who don’t know better .



Instead to learn more ,some try even to discuss the fact that Asians served within the Wehrmacht and waffen-SS .It’s quite childish ‘cause this is a well know fact :



Germans raised volunteers from 5 soviet moslems republics (mostly POWs since the german army never entered the soil of those republics) ; Azerbaidjan ,Kazakhstan,Uzbekistan,Tadjikistan,Khirgizstan and Turkmenistan . According to the plans of the Reich ,in case of a nazi victory ,those republics would have been united in a Greater Turkistan ,allied of Germany .

Those 5 republics had 20 millions inhabitants at that time and provided 70.000 volunteers . Even if in each one republic ,lots of volunteers came from many small tribes and it was found (among others ) : Chugans ,Dungans ,Tarantches ,etc.....

About Tadjiks and Uzbeks ,we must to remember that some of them lives in ...Afghanistan ,which is not so far from ....Tibet . Also the germans recruited Sikhs and hindues from british army POWs and I think to now that (at last im my time ....) India is not far from ...Tibet !

So the “point” about distance from Tibet is absolutely worhtless .

Also you must to remember that most americans read some books from their favorite autors and then they believe that they know everything ,but “our” veterans would surely not share their souvenirs with them . So we may question their knowledge .Even if WW2 was basically an european war ,they just ignore most europeans historical works .



So tell them the following FACTS :



1.You asked me ,time ago ,about Tibetans volunteers in Berlin ‘cause you had read something in “Le Matin des Magiciens” from Pauwels . I answered you that I knew nothing about tibetans in Berlin and I told you not to believe Pauwels ‘cause his book is pure fantasy .(Not “neo-nazi” crypto propaganda but much more of New Age pseudo-esoteric bullshit – in my view .)



2.Then you asked me to ask some of the Berlin’s battle veterans I know (the few ones who are still alive ) about those supposed tibetans .



3.So I wrote to Ricardo Botet ,asking him ....

Here we must to explain to the americans readers ,WHO IS Ricardo Botet .

Cause if americans readers want to talk about the europeans volunteers of the Axis ,they should ,AT LAST , try to know WHO’s WHO among those veterans .



For the uninformed reader ,Ricardo Botet is a LIVING LEGEND in Spain .He is one of the two great ,famous ,heroes of the division Azul still alive (the other one being lieutenant Rosaleny ,famous officer ,heroe of the battle of Krasny-Bor in 1943.

And you will remember ,Panzermahn,that I had sent you a pic of lieutenant Rosaleny ,with his diminute Iron Cross at the buttonhole of his suit ,token in Madrid’s military casino ,in september 2004 ,for the presentation of the book of Prof.Carlos Caballero Jurado about the battle of Krasny-Bor,in presence of spanish NATO generals).

Ricardo Botet is also the only spaniard to have enlisted the division Azul as a private and ended the war as an officer (Untersturmführer in Einsatzgruppe Ezquerra in Berlin ) : Phalangist of the first hour , veteran of the spanish war , soldier within Inf.rgt 269th of the division Azul in July 1941 . Ostmedaille ,EKII, KVKII, german medal of valor for spanish volunteers ,spanish medal of valor in Russia ,Verwundetenazeichen , Nahkampfspange ,etc..... he was promoted to sergeant for valor in combat .Served later in liaison staff in Berlin ‘cause he speak also german and french and was sent as a translator .In 1944 he denied to comeback to Spain when the division Azul and –later –the Legion Azul were sent back to Spain . He joined the Spanisches Freiw.Legion of the Heer (at Stablack ) as a feldwebel and was there recruited by SD Obersturmführer Erich Ehlers (along with spanish Ostuf Rufino Garcia Valdajos ) as SD Oberscharführer .Him and Valdajos were sent in a mission of inflitration of a french communist maquis (formed with many red spaniards) in southwest France .



After this mission he comebacked in Berlin ,met with Leon Degrelle and was instrumental in recruiting spaniards for service in the SS Wallonie (being one of the famous spanish recruiter for the Wallonie ,along with Haupstuf.Miguel Ezquerra ,Ostuf.Garcia Valdajos ,Uscha .Rafael Barrio Torqueros ,and belgian Alphonse van Horembeke and Paul Kehren ,both belgian being former volunteers of the spanish civil war “Tercio” ,Spain’s foreign legion )



Then R.BOTET was sent to Panzergrenadierschule Kienschlag were he was promoted Standarten Oberjunker .He commanded a platoon of the (spanish) 3rd Co of I.Btl ,SS rgt 70 during the battle of Pomerania ,where he won the EKI, and comebacked as chief of the company (or what was left of it) ,since belgian Ustuf Rudi Bal (who had lived in Argentina) ,acting chief of the 3rd Co ,was KIA during that battle .



With the survivors of this company he was transferred to the newly formed spanish SS Einsatzgruppe Ezquerra for the Battle of Berlin . Here he received his 3 squarred stars –spiegel of Untersturmführer ....



At the end of the battle of Berlin ,he tried –with a group of 12 spaniards – to break the russian circle at the west of the city –which he managed - , being captured later by english troops which will retain him as POWs in a camp in North Germany during 3 years .Libered in 1948 he comebacked to Spain .

Now ,this is the man we are talking about ,as source at what I gone say further . This man is straightforward ,a real fighter (and I know a lot of fighters from many wars) but Botet is what we call in Spain a “Jabato” (a “wild boar” , the tittle is pretty flattering) .



4. Botet answered me that he saw a lot of german uniformed deads ,with SIBERIAN FACES (Botet’s own words) ,whose bodies – aroung 100 – were laying everywhere at ,and around ,the Moritzplatz . So obviously it may be the unit you are referring and they were fighting in the Moritzplatz sector . That I answered you ,Panzermahn .



5. NOW it does not mean that these “siberians” were “tibetans” . Not necesarily (and not impossible ,neither )....



6. About the “russian batallion” you mentioned ,you are not entirely mistaken ,it was INDEED a “eastern peoples” battalion in Berlin ,a fact mentioned in many serious works ,like for instance in “Les français sous le casque allemand” (Grancher editors ,1994-France ) by Pierre Philippe Lambert and Gérard le Marec ,two of the most serious and knowledgeable french authors who had interviewed lots of veterans for this important book ,one of the best about french volunteers (and our ever -so -doubtful americans readers may still go to do a google research ,if they don’t know those authors .) and we may read in the chapter about the Legion Speer ,page 80 :



“ The Legion Speer disapeared during the german retreat .Only some russians ,among the youngest ones ,were transferred to regular units and formed later a special foreign battalion in Berlin in april 1945 “



7. BOTTOM LINE :



Yes ,it was an Ostruppen bataillon in Berlin during the battle .Somes white skinned russians served within but most of the troopers were from moslems soviet republics .



Here it should ne noted that Turkmenes (Kirghizs ,Uzbeks ,Tadjiks) are ASIAT-FACED,while Azerbaidjanis looks more “semitics” (like arabs).



So at last one company of this battalion was formed by asiats troopers and they were enlisted in the battle near and at the Moritzplatz . Where they tibetans ?? I don’t know .It would not be impossible but ,personnaly ,I think that they were turkmenes ...



(even if the majority of Turkmenes were at that time fighting in North Italy within the 162th (turk.) Infantry division of the Heer and also in Austria within the Waffengruppe Turkestan of the Osttürkisches Waffen-Verband der SS ...but we must remember that it was formed many turkmenes “work battalions” which were not incorporated within those two big units..so some of those men could have been transferred to this special Ostruppen Btl in Berlin .)



...also I think that Louis Pauwels –who was not an historian – had a knowledge of those asiat Osttruppen fighting in Berlin and that he “transformed” them in “tibetans” just to fullfill his buddhist-connection theories/fantasies.



So tibetans in Berlin ? I think not .

Asiats in Berlin ? definitely YES .



(sorry for the ones who says “no” ,but Ricardo Botet was in the Berlin’s battle .

Milcic was not .So I keep believing Botet . ‘Nuff said . Period .)







With that I think you may close your topic (unless another INFORMED reader shows up with more facts ....) ,Panzermahn ..... Of course you knows a lot more about Botet ‘cause i sent you my “True Believers” book about SS spanish . But I received after it some messages from Botet with lot more infos which will be incluided in the spanish and french version (french version starting publishing very soon , I signed contract few days ago...) for instance the story of the backpack of Botet ,which explains why Julio L.V. (another vet still alive .I don’t write his full name ‘cause he is today an high-ranking adviser of spanish government !!) get captured by the russians and not by the brits like the Botet group : Our friend Ricardo was sent on mission with 12 men ,west of the city (which will allows him to escape breaking the circle at the end of the battle) but ,on the march ,he noted that he had forgotten his backpack .So he ordered Julio L.V. –then a 17 years boy – to comeback to the spanish command post to pick his backpack .In the command post Julio fall on Miguel Ezquerra ,the spanish Kommandeur who get mad ,accusing him of cowardice and slapping him with his gloves .The nerves of everybody were at exploding-point ,anyway ...Yelling ,Ezquerra denied Julio to comeback to the Botet’s group and to better reforce the defenses of the command post .You know what followed : the end of the battle ,Julio at a window ,seing the russians with loudspeakers yelling that Hitler was dead and no harm would be made to POWs....Julio went down to the basement where his combat group was ,but everybody was gone ,only SS Schütze Felipe Vilchez was there putting civilian plainclothes ,among civilians .Julio didn’t found plainclothes ,only an HJ jacket and he put it ...russians entering ,screaming ,some russians grabbing a little girl and raping the girl front at her fathers ,Felipe Vilchez drawing a concealed pistol and shooting the rapists .Vilchez was surely killed in this basement but Julio took profit of confusion and get out ,being re-captured some hours later .Since he had a childish face and the jacket ,the russians thought he was HJ kid so he was not deported to Goulag .He lived for years in refugee’s camps in Germany then was lucky to find himself somehow in the occidental sector some months later ,finished its studies in Germany ,comebacked to Spain many ,many years after the war ,his family thinking he was dead (his two brothers are division Azul veterans .Julio was too young for the division Azul which is why he enlisted clandestinely the Waffen-SS in 1944 at age 16 !)



Comebacking with Botet ,he met during his POW time a latvian woman in a refugee camp ,she is the daughter of a latvian SS general killed by the russians .An unbelievable war- and- love story happened ,which would make a real great movie of a true story (but Hollywood prefers to bullshit us with stupid fiction like “Save the private Ryan”...anyway ) but I am happy to tell you that this woman becomed his wife ,many years later (to get her into Spain with no documents was not the least of the problems) and she is still alive , and still his wife !



A mail from kamerad Ostuf Charlemagne in response for this post

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Exxley
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Post by Exxley » 08 Mar 2005 11:00

Panzermahn wrote:
So tibetans in Berlin ? I think not .
I guess that says it all.

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Allen Milcic
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Post by Allen Milcic » 08 Mar 2005 19:45

Panzermahn:

Kindly do NOT provide materials from banned members of the Forum - posting by proxy by these individuals will not be tolerated. Ostuf Charlemagne was banned by the administration of the Forum for a reason, and this will be your only warning to this effect.

For the sake of this discussion I will not delete your posting, but any future offending posts will be removed on site. Govern yourself accordingly.

Allen/

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