Russia Concerned Over Rehabilitation of Ukrainian WWII Nazis

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ZARATHUSTRA
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Russia Concerned Over Rehabilitation of Ukrainian WWII Nazis

#1

Post by ZARATHUSTRA » 24 Mar 2002, 05:04

Interfax
March 21, 2002

The Russian Foreign Ministry on Thursday expressed concern about reports that Ukrainian nationalists are campaigning for the rehabilitation of the fighters of the so-called Ukrainian Rebellious Army which supported the German fascists during World War II.

It said in a communique circulated on Thursday that, according to reports coming from Ukraine, the Ivano-Frankivsk city legislature has even passed a resolution that gives those who served in the Halychyna SS division the status of "fighters for the freedom and independence of Ukraine".

This decision is tantamount to putting former SS troops and World War II veterans on an equal footing, the Russian Foreign Ministry said.

"We are stating in absolutely clear terms that the rehabilitation of these individuals would be viewed by Russian and the majority of Ukrainian citizens as a shameful and treacherous act with respect to the memory of millions of civilians, among them Russians and Ukrainians, and to the Soviet Army soldiers killed on Nazi-occupied Ukrainian territory and at the fronts of World War II," the document reads.

The Russian Foreign Ministry shares the position of the Russian community in Ivano-Frankivsk Region, which has qualified this resolution as "a dangerous precedent and an attempt to review the outcome of World War II and the decisions of the Nuremberg tribunal", it says.

The Russian Foreign Ministry also stated that this theme is becoming an issue of pre-election speculations. "Unfortunately the Ukrainian authorities have not given a due rebuff to the nationalists' provocations. Moreover, all references to civil reconciliation sound just absurd, to say the least," it said.

The Russian Foreign Ministry is warning that the implementation of the plans of the Ukrainian national-extremists would tell negatively on Russian-Ukrainian relations. It hopes, however, that "the Ukrainian authorities will take resolute measures to annul this resolution of the Ivano-Frankivsk authorities and curb similar provocative 'initiatives' in the future".
"Your enemy shall ye seek; your war shall ye wage, and for the sake of your thoughts! And if your thoughts succumb, your uprightness shall still shout triumph thereby!"

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Angelo
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Plans for Rehabilitation of Ukrainian Collaborators

#2

Post by Angelo » 26 Mar 2002, 16:17

That the Russians should be the last ones to blow out their wildgoose cry in relation to such an alleged plan for rehabilitating those nationalists who cooperated with the Germans during the war, is, in my opinion, a much understandable feeling.

This is, of course, determined by the Russian policy of conquest and annexation during the Soviet decades of pan-Communist ruling over Ukraina. We all know what kind of actual autonomy the various Federations really enjoyed in those years .... and how "democratically" and "willingly" they kept on benefiting from such a "fraternal" embrace.

On the other hand, the fact that in many cases the Patriotic Ukrainian movements, accepted, with no apparent restrain, to cooperate in the criminal activities of political persecution and murdering of all those who were targeted as enemy of the Greater Reich, makes it all the more difficult to accept the idea that the offsprings of such Ukrainian nationalist movements may happily look forward to celebrate their freedom from Russia by conjugating criminal activities on one side and patriotic fighting on the other.

Such a rehabilitation would sound offensive not only to the Russian ex-landlords (which is understandable from their viewpoint), but to all those who suffered and died as a consequence of the Nazi policy of domination in both Western and Eastern Europe.
Unless one can extricate the weeds from the corn, I don't think such an idea would be politically and, more than that, ethically correct so as to seeing it materialized in any form whatsoever.

Angelo


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Post subject: Russia Concerned Over Rehabilitation of Ukrain

#3

Post by ZARATHUSTRA » 27 Mar 2002, 01:12

Much to the displeasure of a few partisans and other enemies of the Ukrainians, I don't think you can plant the guilt with them after the Russians starved to death millions of them. The Russians, not the Germans were the murders in their minds. They, the Ukrainians did the suffering and dying at the hands of the Russians, not the Germans. The Russians should keep their mouths shut.

Ah! how ineptly cometh the word "virtue" out of their mouth! And when they say: "I am just," it always soundeth like: "I am just - revenged!"

With their virtues they want to scratch out the eyes of their enemies; and they elevate themselves only that they may lower others.

Thus Spake Zarathustra
"Your enemy shall ye seek; your war shall ye wage, and for the sake of your thoughts! And if your thoughts succumb, your uprightness shall still shout triumph thereby!"

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#4

Post by RedArmy » 27 Mar 2002, 13:44

Do you know, my dear nazi-lover named ZARATHUSTRA that Germans had killed 1/4 of population in ukraine during WWII?

Of course, NOT!

The only thing you know is that those 'Jewish Bolsheviks-Mongols' kicked the ass of your beloved Germans...

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#5

Post by Dan » 27 Mar 2002, 16:20

The only thing you know is that those 'Jewish Bolsheviks-Mongols' kicked the ass of your beloved Germans
After taking 4 to one casualties and with the help of American industry and the British Empire, etc...

In a Soviet/German war they would have gone through you like a hot knife through butter.

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Fred
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!

#6

Post by Fred » 27 Mar 2002, 18:49

Well said Dan. :)

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Re: Post subject: Russia Concerned Over Rehabilitation of Uk

#7

Post by petersjv » 28 Mar 2002, 04:35

[quote="ZARATHUSTRA"]Ah! how ineptly cometh the word "virtue" out of their mouth! And when they say: "I am just," it always soundeth like: "I am just - revenged!"

With their virtues they want to scratch out the eyes of their enemies; and they elevate themselves only that they may lower others.

[/quote]

Well, it's certainly comforting to know that the Russian government, far from acknowledging Stalin's atrocities, is now adding more nationalities/ethnic groups to its list of... follow the moving parentheses...

UKRANIANS = Anti-Soviet = Anti-(Anti-Fascist) = (Anti-Anti)-Fascist = (Pro)-Fascist = Fascist = Nazi = villain
SOVIETS = Anti-Nazi = hero

The Latvians stick like a thorn in their side the most; now, apparently the Ukranians are not far behind. Only when there are as many sites on the Internet & information is as widely available & enforced as school curriculum (a la Holocaust studies) on Stalin's genocide will there be any hope for justice.

For the Latvian story...
http://latvians.com/Exile/TheseNamesAcc ... milies.htm

Of course, the recently released NKVD (KGB) Riga bureau chief in Latvia [convicted, released due to bad health] said the Latvians were not simple farmers, they were spies and got what they deserved.

The Russian Duma protesting Soviet virtue? The stench is unbearable.

/Peters

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#8

Post by RedArmy » 28 Mar 2002, 09:56

To Dan:

Oh, ya! Of course, our brave American allies had saved us... But where were those brave allies in 1941? But where were those brave allies till November 1942? Yes, I understood, it were Americans who had won in Stalingrad... But evil Stalin was coming near and had stolen the 100 % pure American victory...

By the way, I'd like to tell you:"Without Russians, USA & UK would have lost the WWII"

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#9

Post by Plutonas » 28 Mar 2002, 22:47

One of Hitler's greatest mistakes was discouraging Ukranians and White Russians from collaborating against the USSR by considering them sub-humans (since they were Slavs). Nonetheless, flowers were initially thrown on the invading German troops, as they were seen by these people as liberators from the Communist oppression. Had Hitler taken advantage of the situation, the war may have ended differently.

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Hitler's mistake with Slavs

#10

Post by Angelo » 29 Mar 2002, 00:09

100% TRUE Plutonas, but, hey, what could you expect out of a missed whitewasher with the acumen of a rhino ? :oops:

All he had been out since being a dropout was to gather his people around a few subjects he knew would have made them feel grand:
a) Taking foreign lands at will for the "bare" survival necessities of Germany :P
b) Establishing a new science according to which the Germans where the Master Race while Jews, Slavs, Gypsies, Negroes and even Latinos where inferior beings, or to be more precise, subhumans (exception: Latin races were granted a step up the ladder, that is subhumans+1) :evil:
c) The Jews were to be considered as the "personification of Evil" and not only Germany, but the whole creation couldn't be safe, till the last one would have been eliminated from the earth. :evil:
d) Feeding the Master Race such "noble" principles must have been his only main care and worry, all the rest would come along as a natural consequence. :twisted:
And somehow it did. :oops:

As for the Russians, we can't deny he got some unexpected help from Stalinism which, with its well known atrocities, "justified" as being necessary to transform a state of slaves into a modern socialist country,actually made his anti-communist crusade much more acceptable to the heart of his fellow country men than it would have ever happened if "uncle Joe" were a little bit less savage and a little more farsighted. 8)

That's it, pal.

No one's perfect, but when it comes to finesse of thought, Hitler is to political wisedom just a little less than a groundhog is to human cleverness. All he had was smell, a certain amount of intuition, a good ability to flavor his smelling the way his people liked it and wanted it to taste, and even so he didn't even come close to what history has given us as examples of an average, if not outstanding cultural background.

Just read his works, listen to his roaring speeches and most of all, check what he organized and did in his years of ruling and then compare it all with the last one of the German characters who deserved to pass down in history as cornerstones of culture from the roman days up to now and you'll see for yourself how insulting is to the memory of those Germans to even connect them to the legacy of uncivilization he marked his whole life with. It's not a matter of perspective, or of times and places, it's just a matter of substance: to be a human or not be at all. He chose the latter, but he couldn't help it. He had to. He simply lacked all that's needed to classify a subject as a human being. Parafrasing one of his beloved ways to give a description of the Jew, he, Adolf Hitler, had an astonishing resemblance with a human being, but he just was the opposite of all that's human. He himself taught me this, and that's why I have just one reason to thank him. No teacher could have done any better. :wink:

Angelo

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Rehabilitation of Ukrainians

#11

Post by Melnyk » 02 May 2002, 18:54

The argument here seems to me to be as follows:

former members of the 14 Galician div have been granted the right to receive a war pension as "Fighters for Ukrainian Independence" by the authorities in one provice of Ukraine - namely Ivano Frankivsk.

Although accusations abound - no documented and conclusive proof has ever been forthcoming from Ukraine's long time enemies the Soviet or Polish authorities that FORMER MEMBERS of this unit committed war crimes WHILST SERVING WITH THIS UNIT. This is despite extensive investgations by the Soviet, Polish, US, English and Canadian governments.

Interestingly, this unit was deployed in a anti-partisan capacity in Slovakia and Slovenia - a type of warfare which inevitably lends intself to excesses - yet neither of the governments have ever lodged ANY complaint or accusation against the Division or any of its members.It seems to me therefore that simple membership of this unit which was deployed against the Soviets and other Communist governments during WWII should not prohibit them from receiving a pension from the Ukrainian authorities.

Don't forget a fair number of these guys actually fought in the Red Army BEFORE later joining the 14 Div.

Unfortunatelly heads of Ivano-Frankivsk paid in blood for the descision - just two days ago, the vice-governor of the provice was assassinated, as result of the descision to grant war pensions.

Further comments invited.

Mike

>

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Marcus
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#12

Post by Marcus » 02 May 2002, 19:09

Mike,

Welcome to the forum.

/Marcus

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#13

Post by houndie » 02 Jun 2002, 17:08

Damn, how the russians can get irritating! When I read this news from a paper, I was amazed at someone being brave enough to do such. Then, i thought they would maybe be "flamed" a bit, maybe at the best thrown from power, but some already killed... Of course, you can't be sure he was: 1)killed
2)killed for this,
but it seems you're right.

Why would it be bad to "promote" the local veterans, especially as they weren't connected to atrocities, because they fought against one terror rezhime? They fought in the side of the "bad" guys?

1 thing... nazis didn't kill a big part of the Ukrainians. Wait, the sentence looks wrong... At the time 1939-45, a bunch of ukrainians were killed. I think it was about 20 million. As Ukraine wasn't under Nazi influence the whole time (or most of the time, I'm not sure) and considering the popularity of the Germans compared to the disrespect against the Soviets (at least in Estonia, I guess it should be similar in Ukraine), I think the Soviets killed a lot of Ukrainians. I dare to say, most of the 20 million (over 10 million) were killed by the Soviets.

The Ukrainian 14.-th Division "SS-Galitzia" (is it spelled right?) could be called Nazis. So couldn't you call the two latvian divisions, 15. and 19., nor the Estonian division, 20.-th, Nazis.

SS was the organisation, which took the volunteers into war. I don't think they fought for the order and peace of the Third Reich. I don't think all of them knew how the country worked (I didn't say they didn't know who was Hitler, I mean't all of them didn't know if the country was a democracy or was it a dictatorship; they didn't have to know that, especially the more secluded ones). The Nazis took Estonia just 2 weeks after the Soviets sent almost 20 000 people to Siberia. I think the reason any Estonian would have joined the nazis wasn't in any way connected to Estonians being very pro-antisemitism. I think it was connected to the wish to extract revenge. Of course, as one of you mentioned, the Nazis did the error of not sending them to battle as soon as possible (at least 6 months training), but at first showing their rule over Estonia, which wasn't as good as an independent Estonian country, but was still a lot better than the Soviet rezhime. But still, 50 000 people joined the SS (1.5 million in Estonia).
Should we count the 20.-th Estnische division as nazis?
Should we count the Latvians as nazis, as they shouldn't have had a very different fate?
Should we count the SS-Galitzia as Nazis, as they didn't kill anybody but the soon-to-be occupiers?
War is a matter of vital importance to the state. Hence, it is imperative that it be studied thoroughly - sun tzu
The truth of world war should be documented and it should not be treated as nazi propaganda.

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#14

Post by viriato » 02 Jun 2002, 17:43

Red Army wrote:
Do you know, my dear nazi-lover named ZARATHUSTRA that Germans had killed 1/4 of population in ukraine during WWII?
Houndie wrote:
At the time 1939-45, a bunch of ukrainians were killed. I think it was about 20 million.
Calm down gentleman! Ukraine in today's frontiers had 41.340 millions inhabitants in 1939. At the end of the war Ukraine (1946) had 38.500 millions and in 1959 had resumed the 1940 numbers with 41.869 millions. How could Ukraine have lost 10 millions or 20 millions inhabitants? Pure propaganda numbers.

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Re: Rehabilitation of Ukrainians

#15

Post by Dan » 02 Jun 2002, 17:47

Melnyk wrote:The argument here seems to me to be as follows:

former members of the 14 Galician div have been granted the right to receive a war pension as "Fighters for Ukrainian Independence" by the authorities in one provice of Ukraine - namely Ivano Frankivsk.

Although accusations abound - no documented and conclusive proof has ever been forthcoming from Ukraine's long time enemies the Soviet or Polish authorities that FORMER MEMBERS of this unit committed war crimes WHILST SERVING WITH THIS UNIT. This is despite extensive investgations by the Soviet, Polish, US, English and Canadian governments.

Interestingly, this unit was deployed in a anti-partisan capacity in Slovakia and Slovenia - a type of warfare which inevitably lends intself to excesses - yet neither of the governments have ever lodged ANY complaint or accusation against the Division or any of its members.It seems to me therefore that simple membership of this unit which was deployed against the Soviets and other Communist governments during WWII should not prohibit them from receiving a pension from the Ukrainian authorities.

Don't forget a fair number of these guys actually fought in the Red Army BEFORE later joining the 14 Div.

Unfortunatelly heads of Ivano-Frankivsk paid in blood for the descision - just two days ago, the vice-governor of the provice was assassinated, as result of the descision to grant war pensions.

Further comments invited.

Mike

>
Well said

Best
Dan

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