Dutch SS in Indonesia?

Discussions on the foreigners (volunteers as well as conscripts) fighting in the German Wehrmacht, those collaborating with the Axis and other period Far Right organizations. Hosted by George Lepre.
User avatar
AlifRafikKhan
Member
Posts: 6578
Joined: 15 Sep 2007 19:02
Location: Sukabumi, Indonesia

Re: Dutch SS in Indonesia?

Post by AlifRafikKhan » 04 May 2009 08:37

Yes, of course we do a pretty job on Irian Jaya, to get rid the colonialist (read : Netherland) forever from this land! :P

I will never back-up any policy of my country. I know that some of it so unfairly made for Papua people (Freeport, for example). But I know well that right now my government's policy are better than the past. If you want, you can go to Papua yourself to check it out. :)

LMA-17
Member
Posts: 234
Joined: 05 Sep 2005 10:51
Location: Jakarta

Re: Dutch SS in Indonesia?

Post by LMA-17 » 04 May 2009 09:36

This is the old thread about the pic http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=97482.
And about the magazine, yes it is Angkasa magazine, Herr AlifRafikKhan... They told that the infos came from Marc Rikmenspoel "Waffen SS Encyclopedia", but I doubt it. I believe they taken it from this site...:lol:

Rob - wssob2
Member
Posts: 2387
Joined: 15 Apr 2002 20:29
Location: MA, USA

Re: Dutch SS in Indonesia?

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 05 May 2009 01:56

This is what Marc has to say about the photo in question:
I have a photo of one in one of my books. The photo came from Mark Bando, the American researcher of American Airborne units. In the course of his research into the 101st Airborne Division, he met with Wilson Boback, who had fought in the Netherlands during Market-Garden in September 1944. Boback's unit came into contact with part of the Landstorm Nederland, and Boback killed a man from the LN and then searched his body. He took from it a photo of the man, who was obviously Indonesian (or part), which showed him in the uniform of the Legion Nederland (wolf's hook collar patch, Dutch made armshield and cufftitle), along with the flaming grenade helmet decal of the LN.
Marc's comment IMO is little more than a supposition; he does not provide any concrete data to support the proposition that natives from the Dutch East Indies served in the W-SS. As for the photo, a guy "looking Indonesian" does not make him Indonesian.

LMA-17
Member
Posts: 234
Joined: 05 Sep 2005 10:51
Location: Jakarta

Re: Dutch SS in Indonesia?

Post by LMA-17 » 06 May 2009 01:58

Marc's comment IMO is little more than a supposition; he does not provide any concrete data to support the proposition that natives from the Dutch East Indies served in the W-SS. As for the photo, a guy "looking Indonesian" does not make him Indonesian.
Yup, that's why I said about
some explanation from Marc Rikmenspoel about probability Indonesian background of the volunteer
. However, many fans of Waffen-SS (and Hitler) in here thought that the volunteer must be an Indonesian--and that satisfied theirs wet dreams about the acceptance of foreigners--including Indonesian--as "honorary Aryan super-dupper elite" in Hitler's mighty international empire who fought Jewish international conspiracy :lol:

Rob - wssob2
Member
Posts: 2387
Joined: 15 Apr 2002 20:29
Location: MA, USA

Re: Dutch SS in Indonesia?

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 07 May 2009 05:10

However, many fans of Waffen-SS (and Hitler) in here thought that the volunteer must be an Indonesian--and that satisfied theirs wet dreams about the acceptance of foreigners--including Indonesian--as "honorary Aryan super-dupper elite" in Hitler's mighty international empire who fought Jewish international conspiracy
I agree. Many AHF members desire to see the W-SS as you put it well, a "honorary Aryan super-dupper elite" - conveniently overlooking Nazi racial policies, let alone in this case the colonial system in the Dutch East Indies prior to WWII.

User avatar
AlifRafikKhan
Member
Posts: 6578
Joined: 15 Sep 2007 19:02
Location: Sukabumi, Indonesia

Re: Dutch SS in Indonesia?

Post by AlifRafikKhan » 07 May 2009 06:54

Maybe that's because we're Indonesians didn't have a chance to actively involved in World War II! :lol:

User avatar
HaEn
In memoriam
Posts: 1911
Joined: 13 Mar 2002 00:58
Location: Portland OR U.S.A.

Re: Dutch SS in Indonesia?

Post by HaEn » 08 May 2009 04:51

As stated on a previous discussion; yes there were ex-Dutch Waffen SS members in Indonesia.
Officially it was denied, but unoficcially there must have been several hundreds, who "once escaped from internment camp", volunteered for the Koninklijke landmacht, and went to the Then Dutch Indies.
As far as the photo goes, there were thousands of "half breed" people in Holland, being offspring of Dutch colonial soldiers and East Indian women.
And since there had been a very strong National Socialist movement over there, it was not surprising that some of them volunteered for the "Landwacht" , and later automatically transferred into the Landstorm Nederland, which in turn became the 34th SS. after the Market Garden battle.
So nothing special there; just an example of the fact that especially towards the ind (1944-1945) the "racial purity" was not emphasized anymore. As long as he could walk and shoot :-)
Just an observation
HN.

LMA-17
Member
Posts: 234
Joined: 05 Sep 2005 10:51
Location: Jakarta

Re: Dutch SS in Indonesia?

Post by LMA-17 » 08 May 2009 09:44

I agree if the volunteer was a Eurasian. After all, while pre-war NSB reject theirs existence in the party, 70 percent NSB members in NEI were those "half breed". :roll: And some of them must be live in Netherlands during occupation...
BTW, Opa HaEn, any chance if you meet the man in the picture during your service? after all, both of you serve in the same unit? :)

Best Regards
from Oud Batavia

User avatar
AlifRafikKhan
Member
Posts: 6578
Joined: 15 Sep 2007 19:02
Location: Sukabumi, Indonesia

Re: Dutch SS in Indonesia?

Post by AlifRafikKhan » 09 May 2009 18:41

Haen is a veteran?

User avatar
Marcus
Member
Posts: 33963
Joined: 08 Mar 2002 22:35
Location: Europe

Re: Dutch SS in Indonesia?

Post by Marcus » 09 May 2009 18:50

AlifRafikKhan wrote:Haen is a veteran?
Yes, there are a number of threads where he discusses his time in the Waffen-SS.

/Marcus

User avatar
rednas
Member
Posts: 121
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 13:58
Location: the Netherlands

Re: Dutch SS in Indonesia?

Post by rednas » 12 May 2009 14:38

What fasinates me most is that the soldier on the photo (http://forum.axishistory.com/download/f ... ?id=171229) is wearing the most early Dutch waffen SS insignia. Of course you would see everything being worn in '44, but it also might be possible that he was there from the beginning in '41?

User avatar
AlifRafikKhan
Member
Posts: 6578
Joined: 15 Sep 2007 19:02
Location: Sukabumi, Indonesia

Re: Dutch SS in Indonesia?

Post by AlifRafikKhan » 12 May 2009 15:10

There is always that possibility...

Ypenburg
Member
Posts: 536
Joined: 28 Jul 2006 20:45

Re: Dutch SS in Indonesia?

Post by Ypenburg » 12 May 2009 18:44

Rob - wssob2 wrote: conveniently overlooking Nazi racial policies, let alone in this case the colonial system in the Dutch East Indies prior to WWII.
Since it looks like you place Nazi racial policies and the Dutch colonial system on the same level, please explain.

Rob - wssob2
Member
Posts: 2387
Joined: 15 Apr 2002 20:29
Location: MA, USA

Re: Dutch SS in Indonesia?

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 13 May 2009 03:48

Since it looks like you place Nazi racial policies and the Dutch colonial system on the same level, please explain.
Do you think that they are completely dissimilar?

I'm no expert on Dutch colonialiasm in the NEI other than the Dutch exploited Indonesia through the Tanam Paksa policy before progressing to the Ethische Politiek policy, which is basically the Dutch way of saying "white man's burden."

I do know that Dutch were less uptight about intermarrying Indonesian races than say the British were in the Raj, but I can't find any documentation and/or statistics on what % of the Dutch population in the Netherlands circa 1939 was mixed race. I do know that the majority of mixed-race Dutch/Indonesians - about a quarter-million of them - didn't immigrate to the Netherlands until after Indonesia won it's independence from the Dutch in 1948.

I suspect that whatever mixed-race Dutch-Indonesian population there was in Europe, it was extremey small during WWII.

Haen, perhaps you can tell us if you served with Dutch-Indonesians during your time with the 34th SS.

At any rate, both Naziism and Dutch colonialiam are superficially similar in the fact that they both categorized people according to race (and even had a separate classification system for "half-breeds") and were both exploitative systems.

And certainly judging by the way Raymond Pierre Paul Westerling behaved during the Dutch counterinsurgency campaigns of 1946-48, he would have felt right at home in an SS uniform stationed with an Einstazgruppe in 1942 Ukraine.

Getting back to SS Indonesians for a moment - interestingly enough, Dutch NSB leader Rost van Tonningen attempted to join the Waffen-SS standarte "Westland" in 1941, but his request was denied. Why? Because he was born in Indonesia and he couldn't provide geneological proof of 150-years of pure Aryan ancestry. So yes, SS racial laws did matter.

(LMA-17 your comment "while pre-war NSB reject theirs existence in the party, 70 percent NSB members in NEI were those "half breed" - was interesting - do you have any additional information?)
There is always that possibility...
Heck, anything is possible when we unshackle ourselves from the constraints of logic and scholarship.
Maybe that's because we're Indonesians didn't have a chance to actively involved in World War II!
Plenty of Indonesians did get actively involved in WWII - up to several million of them as "romusa" - or forced laborers - for the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy. 10,000+ Indonesian laborers died when the Japanese merchant ships Tango Maru, Ryusei Maru and Junyo Maru were sunk by Allied submarines. Not exactly dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.

User avatar
AlifRafikKhan
Member
Posts: 6578
Joined: 15 Sep 2007 19:02
Location: Sukabumi, Indonesia

Re: Dutch SS in Indonesia?

Post by AlifRafikKhan » 13 May 2009 10:57

Rob - wssob2 wrote:Plenty of Indonesians did get actively involved in WWII - up to several million of them as "romusa" - or forced laborers - for the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy. 10,000+ Indonesian laborers died when the Japanese merchant ships Tango Maru, Ryusei Maru and Junyo Maru were sunk by Allied submarines. Not exactly dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.
Yes, I know about that. we learned that in our school. Interestingly enough, our national history teacher (PSPB teacher) always said that "346 years in the Dutch colonialization is better than 3,5 years under Japanese heels!"

What I mean is, 'actively' involved. That is, we're Indonesian fought in the World War II battlefield (maybe in Europe?), and not as a laborer...

Rob, if Rost van Tonningen (is he half-breed or just born in Indonesian) couldn't enter the Waffen-SS, so can you explain why that in the page 1 picture there's an Indonesian 'face' as a member of SS? even though then we find out that he's not Indonesian but Suriname or other non-European races, still it's contrary with SS racial policy right?

Btw, I'm amazed that you know so much about our history. Hat on you... :)

Terima kasih.

Return to “Foreign Volunteers & Collaboration”