Dutch SS in Indonesia?

Discussions on the foreigners (volunteers as well as conscripts) fighting in the German Wehrmacht, those collaborating with the Axis and other period Far Right organizations. Hosted by George Lepre.
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rednas
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Re: Dutch SS in Indonesia?

Post by rednas » 13 May 2009 14:43

Indonesians fought in the KNIL during the invasion of Nederlandsch Indië/Indonesia. After that KNIL forces who could escape still fought under Allied command during the war.

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AlifRafikKhan
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Re: Dutch SS in Indonesia?

Post by AlifRafikKhan » 13 May 2009 15:13

Maybe some of them joined the German cause?

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Re: Dutch SS in Indonesia?

Post by LMA-17 » 14 May 2009 01:52

Maybe some of them joined the German cause?
How can they join the German when they were surrendered in NEI 1942? :D
Some KNIL still fought with Allied in Australia, like Julius Tahija. Many Indonesia KNIL men who surrendered to Japanase were release after some months, excluding some Manadonese and Ambonese. Some of the POWs forced to join Japanese auxilliaries, mainly in Heiho. There were at least two Heiho battalions consisted ex-Manadonese KNIL were send to Halmahera.

Before Netherland invaded by Germans, there were many Dutch and Eurasian conservatives in NEI who enthusiastically greet Nazism. Probably they were act like that because they worried with Indonesian nationalism, and found Nazi authoritarian system suited with their's position to keep Indonesia for Netherland. A pro-Nazi stand were also popular in some Dutch officials in NEI, like the conservative Governor General de Jonge who not only greet Mussert when he came to NEI, but also let him to inspected some military facilities. Infos came from J.C. Bijkerk, "Vaarwel, tot betere tijden!" and Onghokham "The Fall of Netherland East Indie" (in Indonesian).
What I mean is, 'actively' involved. That is, we're Indonesian fought in the World War II battlefield (maybe in Europe?), and not as a laborer...
I once read about a Manadonese sailor name Waworuntu who fought in Allied Navy during Normandy campaign. There is a picture of him in Allied Navy uniform in old tabloid "Mutiara".
One of Indonesian Air Force founder, Halim Perdanakusuma, fought as an Royal Canadian Air Forces bomber crew and participated in some bombing missions against Germany. Some of Perhimpoenan Indonesia members in Netherland joined with the Dutch Resistance.
In Asia, you could find Heiho who use by Japanese as auxaliaries against Allied in some theaters, mainly in New Guinea, Solomon, Halmahera, and Balikpapan. Even Japanese tried to build a hero worship for Amat heiho (as a role model for Indonesian youths), an Indonesian soldier who blown up himself (according Japanese propaganda) during fighting against Australian troops in Balikpapan.
Plenty of Indonesians did get actively involved in WWII - up to several million of them as "romusa" - or forced laborers - for the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy.
Not several millions, only some 500,000 at most.

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Re: Dutch SS in Indonesia?

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 14 May 2009 05:12

Not several millions, only some 500,000 at most.
My bad. I stand corrected. ;)
How can they join the German when they were surrendered in NEI 1942?
Exactly.

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Re: Dutch SS in Indonesia?

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 14 May 2009 05:18

Btw, I'm amazed that you know so much about our history. Hat on you...
Thanks! I'm addicted to books and spend far too much time on the internet. :lol:

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Re: Dutch SS in Indonesia?

Post by Ypenburg » 17 May 2009 11:07

Rob-wssob2: At any rate, both Naziism and Dutch colonialiam are superficially similar in the fact that they both categorized people according to race (and even had a separate classification system for "half-breeds") and were both exploitative systems.
Well, in that case we have a lot incommon. Looking at the US behaviour towards the Native’s, coloured and Afro-American you’ve been a bunch of Nazi’s until the early 70’s.
I do know that Dutch were less uptight about intermarrying Indonesian races than say the British were in the Raj…..
The understatement of the year. Besides the fact that colonialism is always wrong, I could give a long list of “good things” the Dutch did over there, like the healthcare, schools, roads, the high rate of native Indonesian people in KNIL, police and public servant-functions, leaving the local culture, habits etc. in peace. Even more, the Dutch who came to NEI mostly mixed with the Native’s, eat the same food, adopted the same habits, believe’s, rituals en took over the language. As an result the had strong national feelings as for being Dutch however if given the choice most of them would have chosen to stay in Indonesia. But AliRafikKhan said it the best:
Interestingly enough, our national history teacher (PSPB teacher) always said that "346 years in the Dutch colonialization is better than 3,5 years under Japanese heels!"
Well, looking at these picture’s of locals, you can understand why:
Image
I do know that the majority of mixed-race Dutch/Indonesians - about a quarter-million of them - didn't immigrate to the Netherlands until after Indonesia won it's independence from the Dutch in 1948.
Actually the proclamation of independence was given by Queen Juliana December 27th 1949.
That still was no reason for most mixed-race or white’s to leave Indonesia and go to Holland.
There had been a Roundtable-conference with the severall Indonesian groups. The result was that a United States of Indonesia was to be. Simply because people from the Moluks, Bali, Sumatra or Java wanted there own part of self-determination like everybody does, even if under a federal gouvernment. Sukarno was chosen by the Assemblee and the Senat as President of the United States of Indonesia. However, most people already knew what Sukarno and his gang where up to: taking over the whole Indonesian Archipel (and later on Irian Jaya) with Javanese in power. It started January 12th 1950 with the arrest of the Pasoendan ministers. When the Javanees troops overrun the other States within the Republic, that was the time the white’s and mixed new they had to leave.
I suspect that whatever mixed-race Dutch-Indonesian population there was in Europe, it was extremey small during WWII.
You’re correct, the few we had in Holland were here to study. And so did those from the Dutch Antilles or Surinam. They had no reason at all to stay in Holland since live oversea was way better then it was here.
And certainly judging by the way Raymond Pierre Paul Westerling behaved during the Dutch counterinsurgency campaigns of 1946-48, he would have felt right at home in an SS uniform stationed with an Einstazgruppe in 1942 Ukraine.

1) Again we have some in common then, since Nazi-party member and Sturmbahnführer Werner von Braun was more then welcome in the good old US of A and had a hell of a career.
And don’t get me started on the Collateral Damage by US troops and the torturing of POW’s. (Which of cause are not POW’s, the good old US of A has some nice names for everything).

2) Besides that, during the Vietnam-war Westerling was approached by F. Baumgartner (ordered by US Senator Barry Goldwater) but also by the military who asked his advices in destroying the VC. However after they read his “Memorandum inzake Vietnam (1 & 2) they didn’t like it. Stopping the B-52 bombings on North and South VN and “Bombing” the enemy with food, medical supplies, and so on wasn’t what the US had in mind.

Image

3) But do you have any unbiased sources on Westerling to back up your claimes?
Indonesian sources like this 1977-letter of a military historian claims the 40.000 figure to be propaganda:

Image

Image

Getting back to SS Indonesians for a moment - interestingly enough, Dutch NSB leader Rost van Tonningen attempted to join the Waffen-SS standarte "Westland" in 1941, but his request was denied. Why? Because he was born in Indonesia and he couldn't provide geneological proof of 150-years of pure Aryan ancestry. So yes, SS racial laws did matter.
Which has nothing to do with your claim that “both Naziism and Dutch colonialism are superficially similar”. Everybody that wanted to join the SS in the early stage of war had to provide “geneological proof of 150-years of pure Aryan ancestry”. Rost, not a half-breed, couldn’t provide that proof since he needed official papers and, as we both know, since Holland was occupied by the Nazi’s and NEI not, there was no way he could get those official papers to Holland.
LMA-17: Before Netherland invaded by Germans, there were many Dutch and Eurasian conservatives in NEI who enthusiastically greet Nazism. Probably they were act like that because they worried with Indonesian nationalism, and found Nazi authoritarian system suited with their's position to keep Indonesia for Netherland.
You really got me laughing here. Since most op the people on Java and the other islands(the Kampong-people) hadn’t heard anything about those nationalistic groups there wasn’t much fear. (Sukarno only came well known when the Japanese used him as their clown with the Putera-party, and provided him and his jokers Hatta and Hadj Mas Mansoer(the leader of Muhammadiyah) with propaganda-materials, money, transportation and radio-transmitting facilities. We radio’s placed in all Java kampongs and Japanese troops forcing the locals the listen to the radio the nationalism started with slogans as Amerika kita strika, Inggeris kita linggis.)

The NSB wasn’t a Nazi-party at all when it started and when it became very popular. Before writing this nonsense you should try to have a look at their action-points. That’s what a lot of people liked about them. Only end 1930’s when Rost von Tonningen was real busy in the party the great move towards the nazi’s started, which caused them to lose a lot of members, esp. in NEI. Mussert however, never was that happy with how things went on. He also didn’t like the idea of Dutch volunteers in the SS.
Not several millions, only some 500,000 at most.
Well that’s a nice way to put it.
The Japanese clown Sukarno “arranged” some 1.000.000 “voluntary labourforces”, the so called romushas. ¾ of them died under the worst circumstances. I can remember my family telling the Allied POW most of the time had a better life then those romushas.
Next to that several 100.000’s forced Indonesian labours also died, so 1.000.000 is a more accurate figure.
In Asia, you could find Heiho who use by Japanese as auxaliaries against Allied in some theaters, mainly in New Guinea, Solomon, Halmahera, and Balikpapan.
From September 1943 the Japanese raised the Heiho in Indonesia. It was called Peta (Tentara Sukarela Pembala Tanah-air = voluntary korps of defenders of the Fatherland), the members called sukarelas (=volunteers). Later on the Japanede formed some other voluntuur-forces like Barisan Peloppor and Barisan Hizbullah.

The members were recruited from the militant nationalists in the cities, but also from the countryside. Many tani’s (farmer) were forced to enter the ranks of these “volunteers”. Many former KNIL soldiers were forced to take position as NCO or CO. Those who refused were killed. This killing was done by sukarelas, using bamboo-spears like a sort of bayonet-training.

At the end of the war when Japan collapses there are some 120.000 of these sukarelas in Indonesia. Problem is that many of them are forces or real nationalists, but also a lot of them are criminals and low-lives, kicked out of the kampongs. It would take to long to tell the whole story but in short: much of these low-lives formed gangs like “Black Buffalo’s”, “Bataillon of Death” and “Legion of suicide commando’s”. Only they didn’t commit suicide but started to plunder, rape, abuse and bestially murder Dutch, Chinese, Indian but most of all 100.000’ds of their own people, mostly the poor kampong-people.

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AlifRafikKhan
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Re: Dutch SS in Indonesia?

Post by AlifRafikKhan » 17 May 2009 16:55

Actually the proclamation of independence was given by Queen Juliana December 27th 1949.
That still was no reason for most mixed-race or white’s to leave Indonesia and go to Holland.
There had been a Roundtable-conference with the severall Indonesian groups. The result was that a United States of Indonesia was to be. Simply because people from the Moluks, Bali, Sumatra or Java wanted there own part of self-determination like everybody does, even if under a federal gouvernment. Sukarno was chosen by the Assemblee and the Senat as President of the United States of Indonesia. However, most people already knew what Sukarno and his gang where up to: taking over the whole Indonesian Archipel (and later on Irian Jaya) with Javanese in power. It started January 12th 1950 with the arrest of the Pasoendan ministers. When the Javanees troops overrun the other States within the Republic, that was the time the white’s and mixed new they had to leave.
We have our independence not by your queen's 'gratitude', but through our own effort. If you still think that you Netherlanders gave away our freedom, I suggest you to learn international history, read Wikipedia or search through the net, then you can come back and say, at least, that our president Soekarno proclamated the independence on 17th August 1945. Just like your country right, what about if I tell you that Dutch Independence had given away by the Nazi because they ran away from the Allied in 1944. I believe if the Nazi still occupied Holland (conquered in amazingly couple days!), you couldn't boast that you 'give' other nation's independence!

Again we have some in common then, since Nazi-party member and Sturmbahnführer Werner von Braun was more then welcome in the good old US of A and had a hell of a career.
And don’t get me started on the Collateral Damage by US troops and the torturing of POW’s. (Which of cause are not POW’s, the good old US of A has some nice names for everything).
You couldn't compare Westerling with Von Braun. Westerling is famous because of his notorierity to Indonesian people (remember APRA 1950), but Von Braun, we know what is his speciality! I believe if he is willing to stay in Holland after the war, your country would 100% approved! If you think that the thousands figures of Westerling victims is just a 'propaganda', please come to Indonesia yourself to visit the graves in Bandung and Sulawesi (Celebes), you can see 'the propaganda' by your own eyes!

You really got me laughing here. Since most of the people on Java and the other islands(the Kampong-people) hadn’t heard anything about those nationalistic groups there wasn’t much fear. (Sukarno only came well known when the Japanese used him as their clown with the Putera-party, and provided him and his jokers Hatta and Hadj Mas Mansoer(the leader of Muhammadiyah) with propaganda-materials, money, transportation and radio-transmitting facilities. We radio’s placed in all Java kampongs and Japanese troops forcing the locals the listen to the radio the nationalism started with slogans as Amerika kita strika, Inggeris kita linggis.)
Where do you get your claim? from 'trusted' Dutch history books? You said that our historical claims as propaganda, but I'm sure you're no different at all! You said that Soekarno 'only came well known when the Japanese used him'? Well my friend, I think you're too much stuck in a paper of colonialist propaganda of your own! Soekarno is already famous back to the time of colonialist era, he routinely wrote articles about the freedom movement in local newspapers like 'Pikiran Ra'jat', and at that time he's still as college student in Bandung! If you know Indonesian history well, you must be know the recent political party of Soekarno's daughter, Megawati, PDIP. Its root came from PNI, the party that Soekarno build in the twenties.
He also hoped that Japan would commence a war against the western powers and that Java could then gain its independence with Japan's aid. He was arrested in 1929 by Dutch colonial authorities and sentenced to two years in prison. By the time he was released, he had become a POPULAR HERO. He was arrested several times during the 1930s and was in exile when Japan occupied the archipelago in 1942. (from Wikipedia)

Well, if you think that our first president and vice-president is a clown because they collaborated with Japan, I thinks it's better than your 'beloved' queen Juliana whose both CLOWN and COWARD because she is truly the Allied puppet and she's runaway from her devastated country because feared of the German might capture her. Remember, the history always made by the winning side, so now you could sit down, relax at your home and type about how BRAVE your leader was. But what if the result was reversed?

I'm sorry, no intense from me to insult your country or your leader, but I want to show you that there's always two side of a coin if we come to what we THINK and SEE. It's hard to be objective when you take your pride and prejudice with you...

The Japanese clown Sukarno “arranged” some 1.000.000 “voluntary labourforces”, the so called romushas. ¾ of them died under the worst circumstances. I can remember my family telling the Allied POW most of the time had a better life then those romushas.
Next to that several 100.000’s forced Indonesian labours also died, so 1.000.000 is a more accurate figure.
So now you become the scientist and also the saint? great! especially, this come from a man whose country just eager to colonialize other country from the start they achieved their own independence!

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Re: Dutch SS in Indonesia?

Post by LMA-17 » 19 May 2009 02:09

You really got me laughing here. Since most op the people on Java and the other islands(the Kampong-people) hadn’t heard anything about those nationalistic groups there wasn’t much fear. (Sukarno only came well known when the Japanese used him as their clown with the Putera-party, and provided him and his jokers Hatta and Hadj Mas Mansoer(the leader of Muhammadiyah) with propaganda-materials, money, transportation and radio-transmitting facilities. We radio’s placed in all Java kampongs and Japanese troops forcing the locals the listen to the radio the nationalism started with slogans as Amerika kita strika, Inggeris kita linggis.)
How many American known about nationalism when they proclaimed their independence? How many Russsian known about social democratism and communism when Russian revolution started? How many French known about the mean of theirs revolution slogans when they thrown-out theirs king :)
IMHO, most people didn't know or care anything about politic. They only follow where the wind go...And 'the wind' lead by minority....In NEI, people didn't need to know about the mean of nationalism. They only need know that other nation rule them. And that's enough to stir a modest-nationalism, a simple one. Japanese only exploited the tendency during their occupation, to blown-up something that, after all, will become a reality--something that some Dutch already predicted before war.
As an example, JJ van de Velde, in his memoirs, said that during his course in Netherland before went to NEI as colonial official in 1930s, one of his famous professor in colonial affairs said that his group would become one of the last Dutch officials who rule in NEI because Indonesian became more and more nationalistic than before. This tendency made many conservatives fear Indonesian nationalistic progress. Many of them joined with Vaterlandse Club, a reactionary group who swore that NEI will always became Dutch possesion. Some NSB/NIFO leaders in NEI came from this group.
And if they didn't fear about Indonesian nationalist movement, why during 1930s, especially during de Jonge rule, NEI became more and more a police state?
The NSB wasn’t a Nazi-party at all when it started and when it became very popular. Before writing this nonsense you should try to have a look at their action-points. That’s what a lot of people liked about them. Only end 1930’s when Rost von Tonningen was real busy in the party the great move towards the nazi’s started, which caused them to lose a lot of members, esp. in NEI. Mussert however, never was that happy with how things went on. He also didn’t like the idea of Dutch volunteers in the SS.
Of course Mussert didn't like the idea of Dutch volunteers in the SS because he know that Himmler use them for his own (SS/Nazis)end, not him. After all, Mussert dreams to rule Netherland--even as Hitler's puppet--shattered when the Nazis only want to rule his country as one of theirs gau and appointed a reichcommissars to rule his country, instead of him.
J.C. Bijkerk said that NSB popularity in NEI still high until Hitler invaded Netherland. After all, as Mussert said in his trial, the greatest NSB donation came from NEI....
Indonesian sources like this 1977-letter of a military historian claims the 40.000 figure to be propaganda:
You right. But the probably true numbers still higher: 3,000. That's the number that Westerling himself acknowledge... :wink:
From September 1943 the Japanese raised the Heiho in Indonesia. It was called Peta (Tentara Sukarela Pembala Tanah-air = voluntary korps of defenders of the Fatherland), the members called sukarelas (=volunteers). Later on the Japanede formed some other voluntuur-forces like Barisan Peloppor and Barisan Hizbullah.
Heiho is different with the Peta/Giyugun. Just look http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=7428
The members were recruited from the militant nationalists in the cities, but also from the countryside. Many tani’s (farmer) were forced to enter the ranks of these “volunteers”. Many former KNIL soldiers were forced to take position as NCO or CO. Those who refused were killed. This killing was done by sukarelas, using bamboo-spears like a sort of bayonet-training.
Never read or heard this story, including from Dutch sources....Not many ex-KNIL join the Peta because Japanese doubt theirs loyalty. After all, they formed Peta with some nationalistic rule. Only in the Heiho many ex-KNIL used by Japanese
At the end of the war when Japan collapses there are some 120.000 of these sukarelas in Indonesia. Problem is that many of them are forces or real nationalists, but also a lot of them are criminals and low-lives, kicked out of the kampongs. It would take to long to tell the whole story but in short: much of these low-lives formed gangs like “Black Buffalo’s”, “Bataillon of Death” and “Legion of suicide commando’s”. Only they didn’t commit suicide but started to plunder, rape, abuse and bestially murder Dutch, Chinese, Indian but most of all 100.000’ds of their own people, mostly the poor kampong-people.
That's one of the saddest part in Indonesian history....However, not because I want to defend this gruesome actions, many revolutions also have this similar actions, like Reign of terror during French Revolution, Prague rebellion against Germany in May 1945, Yugoslav partisan victory, etc.

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Re: Dutch SS in Indonesia?

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 19 May 2009 05:02

LMA-17 - you wrote
1) Again we have some in common then, since Nazi-party member and Sturmbahnführer Werner von Braun was more then welcome in the good old US of A and had a hell of a career.
And don’t get me started on the Collateral Damage by US troops and the torturing of POW’s. (Which of cause are not POW’s, the good old US of A has some nice names for everything).
What's up with your anti-american agitprop? You seem to have an axe to grind that strays far from the subject of whether Indonesians served in the W-SS.

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Re: Dutch SS in Indonesia?

Post by LMA-17 » 19 May 2009 05:38

LMA-17 - you wrote

1) Again we have some in common then, since Nazi-party member and Sturmbahnführer Werner von Braun was more then welcome in the good old US of A and had a hell of a career.
And don’t get me started on the Collateral Damage by US troops and the torturing of POW’s. (Which of cause are not POW’s, the good old US of A has some nice names for everything).

What's up with your anti-american agitprop? You seem to have an axe to grind that strays far from the subject of
Holly Molly....It's not me who wrote that, Rob.... :o Please, read them carefully....hehe 8O

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Re: Dutch SS in Indonesia?

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 21 May 2009 12:52

Whoops sorry LMA-17! :P

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Re: Dutch SS in Indonesia?

Post by fons » 23 May 2009 15:45

The structural sending of former Dutch SS to Indonesia?
I doubt it, but feel free to find this secret army directive in the Dutch archives ;)
Personally I think it is a coincidence if a bunch was shipped over there.
Some of the Dutch interested online know at least one.

Best Regards,
fons

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Re: Dutch SS in Indonesia?

Post by AlifRafikKhan » 24 May 2009 12:54

Can you please give us the link? :)

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Re: Dutch SS in Indonesia?

Post by fons » 24 May 2009 13:00

To what if I may ask?

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AlifRafikKhan
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Re: Dutch SS in Indonesia?

Post by AlifRafikKhan » 25 Jul 2009 22:02

To the secret army directive in the Dutch archives link that you've mentioned...

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