Foreign Volunteers during the Battle of Berlin, 1945

Discussions on the foreigners (volunteers as well as conscripts) fighting in the German Wehrmacht, those collaborating with the Axis and other period Far Right organizations. Hosted by George Lepre.
Panzermahn
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Foreign Volunteers during the Battle of Berlin, 1945

Post by Panzermahn » 10 Mar 2005 09:56

Okay, since the mod locked the previous thread, i think i will create this one to have a more civil discussion..(hopefully)
Furthermore, i am not talking about war crimes but i had no understanding on why some members portrayed their Germanophobia..Is it so hard to talk about historical facts without getting replies such as

"those goddamm fascists beasts who shoot and murdered people without mercy"

Let’s stay with the facts .

Ostuf Charlemagne is not posting by my way .He sent me this info and I thought it was worthwhile for my point in the topic ,so I was SHARING info ,which I think it is what this forum is made for. I'm not his proxy either coz i forgot to tell that he mentioned i could post this info from the email he sent to me..SO..finish..matter settled


Unlike some readers who rely mostly on American literature, Ostuf Charlemagne knows a lot of Berlin’s battle veterans .What he says makes sense because he is in contact with Ricardo Botet was here. It’s a fact ,either you like it or not .So I think that his testimony is surely more accurate than whatever may says other readers who weren’t even born at that time .

So those volunteers were not tibetans ,but surely asiatics ones. What does it disturb you so much ?? so far they weren’t the only foreigners ones in defending Berlin ,it was also 300 frenchs , 150 spaniards , danes ,norwegians ,swedes , some finns still in the Nordland division, a latvian battalion, a Hungarian company, white russians , and even one SS italian man (at last). few miles in north-east of Berlin ,Otto Skorzeny had set up from the scratch a really international unit ; the Schwedt -Festungs-Division which included a whole SS rumanian regiment .So why not some asiats ,turkmenes or whatever ?? Afterall the Third Reich had asians fighting in Eastern Front ,Normandy and North Italy . Why should the germans refrain to put some of them in Berlin ,this fact being acknowledged by many veterans of the battle ??? But some posters kept accusing me that i was pointing out that Waffen SS is an international force (although partly true but not the way you think)

About offensive posts : May i make you note that –if you read well since the start of my topic – I have been the one who have been offended by mockeries ,when this is just an historical topic ,you may disagree with me ,but why to do it in an offensive mode ?? Why must you people keep talking about war crimes of the Germans when i was pointing out that some European and non-European volunteers fought in Berlin which is a historical facts? About the reader who make some mockeries (instead to try to deny with facts the testimonies of famous veterans – which should be a lot more difficult,by the way) like mongols armed with bows and taking out two T-34 regiments :


No need for it ,mister ,indeed the frenchs SS did it ,destroying 160 russian tanks in only one week ( of a total of more than 500 tanks that the russians had lost in Berlin ) , which granted 4 Ritterkreuzen to the french Charlemagne’s Sturmbataillon : Fenet, Appolot and Vaulot and Weber, a German. Not bad in only one week . Now I confess it was not done with bows but with panzerschreken and panzerfausten .


So i really do not understand the point of mockery of the english gentleman . Should we “erase” historical facts who are quite unpalatable for some english readers ? In this case, if the witnessed presence of asiats Axis soldiers in Berlin disturb english readers , should we “erase” too the Irish battalion which fought for Franco in Spain in 1936-37 ?? Should we forget the Irish Legion of Napoleon’s army ?? Like they had forgotten the cossacks of the Von Pannwitz corps ,slaughtered along with their families ,by the brits in North Italy and Austria in 1945 ??


I just does not understand why you try so hard to deny the presence of asian soldiers fighting under german uniform in Berlin, despite testimonies of veterans who were there which were communicated to me by my comrade .My topic have nothing to do with politics but I was just trying to confirm this fact and asking whether there are more corroboration
I'm sorry to see that a valuable section has been turned into insults and mockeries when myself i had never insulted any posters who disagree me especially in the Foreign Volunteers & Collaboration section

Berlin’s battle veterans says it was some asiatic soldiers there ,but you guys says it was not so ...mmmhhhhh !!!!!!!!!

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redcoat
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Post by redcoat » 10 Mar 2005 10:55

] Like they had forgotten the cossacks of the Von Pannwitz corps ,slaughtered along with their families ,by the brits in North Italy and Austria in 1945 ??

First you state 'lets stay with the facts ', then you come out with a lie.
You don't change, do you panzermahn
:roll: :x

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Allen Milcic
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Post by Allen Milcic » 10 Mar 2005 22:54

Panzermahn:

Let me get a few points straight, so there are no misunderstandings, especially as it relates to the recently locked "Tibetans in the Wehrmacht" thread:

1. There was no "Germanophobia" expressed whatsoever, nor would I have allowed such a thing. You need to be able to tell the difference between someone's disdain for the glorification of the 3rd Reich and/or the Waffen SS and a disdain for "Germany" in general;
2. I reiterate that Ostuf Charlemagne is banned from this Forum, with just cause, and information, postings, clippings etc. from him are NOT going to be allowed - I don't care how YOU qualify it, Panzermahn, by posting HIS information on the Forum you are acting as his proxy. If you do it again, you will be banned as well - is that clear?
3. Nobody denies the presence of a number of Asians within the Wehrmacht, I simply cannot put that in any more plain English. What myself and a great majority of Forum members are annoyed with and find unacceptable is a) the engrossing of the numbers of Asians, which in reality was not significant; b) using the fact that the German military, which was strapped for manpower and engaged pretty much anyone with a pulse towards the end of the war, as proof of the kindness, we-are-the-world ethnic and religious tolerance of the Waffen SS, leading towards the inevitable conclusion that the 3rd Reich was a kinder-gentler state than the "western propaganda" is making it out to be;
4. Nobody, again, denies the presence of handfuls of non-Germans in Berlin during the final agony of the 3rd Reich - what is irritating and unacceptable is the use of this as proof of what I have described in point 3;
5. As for the mockery - honestly, Panzermahn, most Forum members are by now completely overloaded with your obsessive search for your Holy Grail, i.e. proof that the Waffen SS and the 3rd Reich were the epitomy of manhood, gallantry, honour etc, while the Allies were bumbling savages prone to war-crimes, cover-ups and propaganda. You are simply not taken seriously anymore, as you have burned your credibility with incredibly simplistic reasoning and complete blinders when it comes to analyzing anything relating to the 3rd Reich.

Let me put it to you simply - post serious threads and objective, primary source evidence for your positions, and no one will brush you off. Take off the blinders when it comes to the 3rd Reich and, especially, the Waffen SS, and most people might eventually take you seriously. Most importantly - READ what people write in their postings; from what you have posted herein, and from what you have been posting lately, you are obviously NOT doing that.

Allen/

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Post by Kunnar Kesküla » 11 Mar 2005 10:42

Panzermahn!
Maybe you will understand, that you can't have different understanding about the history of WWII, then moderators have.
Be normal, change your mind and allow to democratic rules in this forum or you will kicked out :wink:

Rgds
Kunnar

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Armenische_Legionar
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Caucasians in the battle of Berlin

Post by Armenische_Legionar » 11 Mar 2005 17:34

Hi everybody!

I know some interesting facts about Armenians, Georgians and Azeris which was participated in this battle -

If this is an interesting, I'll write about.

Best Regards,
Eduard :) :) :) :) :) :)

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Allen Milcic
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Post by Allen Milcic » 11 Mar 2005 17:52

Kunnar Kesküla wrote:Panzermahn!
Maybe you will understand, that you can't have different understanding about the history of WWII, then moderators have.
Be normal, change your mind and allow to democratic rules in this forum or you will kicked out :wink:

Rgds
Kunnar


Kunnar:

Have you actually read what I posted? What part of my posting do you disagree with? And kindly can the sarcasm, it's unbecoming.

Allen/

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Benoit Douville
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Post by Benoit Douville » 12 Mar 2005 03:07

Eduard,

I am really interested about the Armenians and Georgians who participated in the Battle of Berlin, I will read it with great enthusiast.

Regards

Panzermahn
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Re: Caucasians in the battle of Berlin

Post by Panzermahn » 12 Mar 2005 05:08

Armenische_Legionar wrote:Hi everybody!

I know some interesting facts about Armenians, Georgians and Azeris which was participated in this battle -

If this is an interesting, I'll write about.

Best Regards,
Eduard :) :) :) :) :) :)


Hi Eduard,

It would be most interesting!!! I also would like to know about the Armenians, Georgians and Azeris who fought during the Battle of Berlin? Is there any order-of-battle for osttruppen or eastern legions who fought at Berlin?

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Armenische_Legionar
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Post by Armenische_Legionar » 12 Mar 2005 12:55

So,
in the end of 1944, in Newhammer was formed 12th panzergrenadier regiment (Kaukasische). It was formed by Armenian, Georgian, Azeri and Norh Caucasian battalions. There were fight in Oder front, than the formation was sended to Berlin and destroyed by Soviets. Prisoner Caucasians was killed after the victory. 2 Armenian Companies and 1 Georgian and 1 Azeri (there were parade Co's) participated in that battle too. As my researching - more than 600 Armenians, 500 Georgians, 700 Azeris and some North Caucasians were participated in the battle of Berlin.

All The best,
Eduard :wink:

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lavella
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Post by lavella » 12 Mar 2005 15:22

Armenische_Legionar wrote:So,
in the end of 1944, in Newhammer was formed 12th panzergrenadier regiment (Kaukasische). It was formed by Armenian, Georgian, Azeri and Norh Caucasian battalions. There were fight in Oder front, than the formation was sended to Berlin and destroyed by Soviets. Prisoner Caucasians was killed after the victory. 2 Armenian Companies and 1 Georgian and 1 Azeri (there were parade Co's) participated in that battle too. As my researching - more than 600 Armenians, 500 Georgians, 700 Azeris and some North Caucasians were participated in the battle of Berlin.

All The best,
Eduard :wink:



Was it really an honour for Armenian ,Georgian and Azeri nations to have their nationals fighting alongside with Nazis.?..................... as for myself ,I doubt

Amicalement Lavella

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Benoit Douville
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Post by Benoit Douville » 12 Mar 2005 16:26

Eduard,

That was a really interesting post to read, I didn't know that so many Armenians, Georgians and Azeris participated in the Battle of Berlin.

Lavella,

Well, considering the politic of terror that Stalin had instaured in Georgia (a lot of Georgians were deported to the Gulag) I don't blame some Georgians, Armenians or Azeris to joined the Waffen-SS Volunteers.

Regards

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Allen Milcic
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Post by Allen Milcic » 12 Mar 2005 17:20

Armenische_Legionar wrote:So,
in the end of 1944, in Newhammer was formed 12th panzergrenadier regiment (Kaukasische). It was formed by Armenian, Georgian, Azeri and Norh Caucasian battalions. There were fight in Oder front, than the formation was sended to Berlin and destroyed by Soviets. Prisoner Caucasians was killed after the victory. 2 Armenian Companies and 1 Georgian and 1 Azeri (there were parade Co's) participated in that battle too. As my researching - more than 600 Armenians, 500 Georgians, 700 Azeris and some North Caucasians were participated in the battle of Berlin.

All The best,
Eduard :wink:


Hi Eduard:

What are your sources for this information?

Regards,
Allen/

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Armenische_Legionar
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Post by Armenische_Legionar » 12 Mar 2005 19:08

lavella wrote:
Armenische_Legionar wrote:So,
in the end of 1944, in Newhammer was formed 12th panzergrenadier regiment (Kaukasische). It was formed by Armenian, Georgian, Azeri and Norh Caucasian battalions. There were fight in Oder front, than the formation was sended to Berlin and destroyed by Soviets. Prisoner Caucasians was killed after the victory. 2 Armenian Companies and 1 Georgian and 1 Azeri (there were parade Co's) participated in that battle too. As my researching - more than 600 Armenians, 500 Georgians, 700 Azeris and some North Caucasians were participated in the battle of Berlin.

All The best,
Eduard :wink:



Was it really an honour for Armenian ,Georgian and Azeri nations to have their nationals fighting alongside with Nazis.?..................... as for myself ,I doubt

Amicalement Lavella


Dear Lavella

For meny Armenians and Georgians Soviet was like a Turkish invention, the Gulags and repressions let the people to understand the situation. This problem - Karabakh conflict, will never been if Soviets took it from Armenia and gave to Azeris. Armenia was been a great country if Soviets wasn't help the turks...
hundred thousands Armenians, Georgians and Azeris was killed by "Red Terror" 1930-1940...

:oops:
Regards,
Eduard

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Armenische_Legionar
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Post by Armenische_Legionar » 12 Mar 2005 19:17

Allen Milcic wrote:
Armenische_Legionar wrote:So,
in the end of 1944, in Newhammer was formed 12th panzergrenadier regiment (Kaukasische). It was formed by Armenian, Georgian, Azeri and Norh Caucasian battalions. There were fight in Oder front, than the formation was sended to Berlin and destroyed by Soviets. Prisoner Caucasians was killed after the victory. 2 Armenian Companies and 1 Georgian and 1 Azeri (there were parade Co's) participated in that battle too. As my researching - more than 600 Armenians, 500 Georgians, 700 Azeris and some North Caucasians were participated in the battle of Berlin.

All The best,
Eduard :wink:


Hi Eduard:

What are your sources for this information?

Regards,
Allen/



Hi Allen

Some German but mostly from Russian and Armenian KGB. I had already find few documents about Armenian, Georgian and Azeri prisoners during that battle. There were all shooted.

Regards,
Eduard

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Allen Milcic
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Post by Allen Milcic » 12 Mar 2005 20:01

Armenische_Legionar wrote:Hi Allen

Some German but mostly from Russian and Armenian KGB. I had already find few documents about Armenian, Georgian and Azeri prisoners during that battle. There were all shooted.

Regards,
Eduard


Hi Eduard:

You have access to KGB files?

Allen/

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