SS-Division "Handschar" photos

Discussions on the foreigners (volunteers as well as conscripts) fighting in the German Wehrmacht, those collaborating with the Axis and other period Far Right organizations. Hosted by George Lepre.
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Ivan Ž.
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Re: Some SS "Handschar" photo-infos

Post by Ivan Ž. » 17 Nov 2016 11:46

Arto O wrote:Is he a reenactor and what is on the table? SS match box 8O. And the postcard looking thing?
Source: the previous web site.
Of course it's a reenactor!! They're playing a wartime Christmas! - real Handschar-style! :roll:

When will reenactors finally learn that they must always put a "Reenactment" watermark on their pics, as is done on TV.

They are making a real mess with history, with their unwatermarked, artificially aged photos all over the internet.

(Forgive me for my tone, Arto, needless to say it has nothing to do with you, but with careless reenacting)

Cheers,
Ivan

PS
As far as I've seen, that website has quite a few more non-Handschar photos, but the worst part is that nearly all images from the book by our host here, George Lepre ("Himmler's Bosnian Division"), have been scanned and posted there, without the permission of the author, without caring for the copyright.

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Re: Some SS "Handschar" photo-infos

Post by Arto O » 18 Nov 2016 19:18

Hi Ivan Z.
for confirming it.
with best regards
Arto

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Ivan Ž.
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Re: Some SS "Handschar" photo-infos

Post by Ivan Ž. » 18 Nov 2016 20:00

[Cheers, Arto.] The constant online mixing of original and reenactment photos is really annoying and also worrying. There are already too many reenactment pics online being spread around as originals, for the past 10 years; what can we expect to find on the internet in another 10 years?

Just a few days ago I saw this reenactment photo from a book cover on an eBay sale as a "repro of photo from NARA collection"! And the same photo can be found today (the black and white copy) on numerous sites as an authentic pic of a "Prinz Eugen" officer :roll: It is also one of the very first Google image results when one searches for the photos of this unit.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Soldier-of-7-SS- ... OSwo4pYKbF~
ra-ebay.jpg
w-ss uniforms.JPG
[/size]
Cheers,
Ivan
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Ivan Ž.
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Re: Some SS "Handschar" photo-infos

Post by Ivan Ž. » 30 Nov 2016 18:46

AlifRafikKhan wrote:Hi, who are these officers? The picture was taken in 3 November 1943.
Phil Don wrote:The Ostubaf have been identified as Franz MATHEIS (see the SS & Polizei section).
Ivan Ž. wrote:Phil, some details still need to be confirmed regarding the Matheis ID. Most of all, the rank.
Matheis ID confirmed.

Cheers,
Ivan

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Re: Some SS "Handschar" photo-infos

Post by Ivan Ž. » 07 Dec 2016 16:02

Phil Don wrote:Now the more difficult is to identify the Stubaf. Surely another volksdeutsche (black collar).
Another photo of the unidentified Stubaf., taken a few days/weeks later, in Neuhammer (notice the new patch).
nn stubaf.jpg
Ivan
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AlifRafikKhan
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Re: Some SS "Handschar" photo-infos

Post by AlifRafikKhan » 19 Dec 2016 06:20

Hi, who are the two Handschar officers at right? At left is SS-Obersturmführer Alexander Michawetz, Chef 1.Kompanie / SS-Gebirgs-Pionier-Bataillon 13.


Source:
http://handzar.jimdo.com/drugi-svjetski ... michawetz/
http://aufseherin.tumblr.com/page/35
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Ivan Ž.
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Re: Some SS "Handschar" photo-infos

Post by Ivan Ž. » 19 Dec 2016 12:15

SS-Ostuf. Alexander Michawetz, SS-Stubaf. ?, SS-Hstuf. Heinz Knoll.

Cheers,
Ivan

* G. Lepre credited the Stubaf. as Karl Liebermann, division's IIa; Lexikon d. Wehrmacht website claim that the division's IIa first name was Franz; Franz Liebermann was apparently promoted to Stubaf. after Knoll was promoted to the same rank, and Knoll still wears the Hstuf. rank here. Further details need to be re-checked: the first name of the division's IIa, and his and Knoll's promotion dates to the Stubaf. rank. Also: who succeeded Kirchbaum in Sept. 1943 as commander of the division's Pi.Btl.? The other two officers in the photo, on the left and right, both belong to this battalion; it would be logical that the man in the middle was their commander.

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Re: Some SS "Handschar" photo-infos

Post by Phil Don » 19 Dec 2016 14:34

Hi Ian
In my files, Heinz Knoll succeed to Kirschbaum.

Phil.

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Ivan Ž.
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Re: Some SS "Handschar" photo-infos

Post by Ivan Ž. » 19 Dec 2016 14:56

Ah, yes indeed, I have the same info. Thank you, Phil.
Ivan Ž. wrote:Franz Liebermann was apparently promoted to Stubaf. after Knoll was promoted to the same rank, and Knoll still wears the Hstuf. rank here. Further details need to be re-checked: the first name of the division's IIa, and his and Knoll's promotion dates to the Stubaf. rank.
Promotion dates re-checked and now they match those seen in the photo:

Franz Liebermann was promoted to SS-Stubaf. d. R. on 09.11.1943 http://www.dws-xip.pl/reich/biografie/n ... mer52.html
[and not in August 1944 as is written here http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Zus ... uerkei.htm]

Heinz Knoll on 21.06.1944 http://www.dws-xip.pl/reich/biografie/n ... er455.html

Note: if I'm not very much mistaken, the Stubaf. wears a Finnish medal (the cross on the left, I forgot its official name), which would indicate that he previously served in Finland = SS Div. "Nord". Liebermann did serve in this unit.

The only detail left to check: was there ever a Karl Liebermann in the "Handschar", or was it Franz Liebermann (SS-Nr. 52942) all along?

Ivan

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Re: Some SS "Handschar" photo-infos

Post by AlifRafikKhan » 20 Dec 2016 15:59

Thank you Ivan

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Re: Some SS "Handschar" photo-infos

Post by tom_deba » 05 Jan 2017 12:04

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Re: Some SS "Handschar" photo-infos

Post by Mujo » 15 Mar 2017 04:50

ffbikersar wrote:Many pictures of Handschar can be found at this web site:

http://handzar.jimdo.com/drugi-svjetski-rat/slike/

And here's one contribution from my family's album: taken during the training of unit in Germany. Third from the left standing is my uncle Sulejman (father's brother), who went missing in action during fighting in Eastern Bosnia.

Image
Is this before he was transferred to the 13th SS Division? Because the uniforms imply that he was a legionary with the Wehrmacht.

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Re: Some SS "Handschar" photo-infos

Post by ffbikersar » 15 Mar 2017 08:03

Mujo wrote:
ffbikersar wrote:Many pictures of Handschar can be found at this web site:

http://handzar.jimdo.com/drugi-svjetski-rat/slike/

And here's one contribution from my family's album: taken during the training of unit in Germany. Third from the left standing is my uncle Sulejman (father's brother), who went missing in action during fighting in Eastern Bosnia.

Image
Is this before he was transferred to the 13th SS Division? Because the uniforms imply that he was a legionary with the Wehrmacht.
I only this was taken after the unit was moved to Germany after Villefranche mutiny. Maybe while in the training camp they were given to wear Wehrmacht uniforms (for unknown reason)?

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Re: Some SS "Handschar" photo-infos

Post by Ivan Ž. » 16 Mar 2017 21:54

Hello, ffbikersar

If your uncle went missing in action in Bosnia in 1943 and was pictured in a Heer uniform with a Croatian armshield on his right sleeve, he was certainly never a member of the "Handschar", but a member of the German-Croatian 369th or 373rd Infantry Division, which were both trained in Germany (Austria actually, which was part of Germany at the time) and both saw action in Bosnia 1943. The last German-Croatian division (392nd), as well as the "Handschar", saw its first action in 1944. Regarding the last question: no, "Handschar" men were not given Heer uniforms (and they were trained in different camps than German-Croatian legionnaires, which are indeed seen in your photo, as Mujo correctly pointed out).

Cheers,
Ivan

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Re: Some SS "Handschar" photo-infos

Post by Peter » 11 Dec 2017 13:08

A nice Handschar collar insignia photo from the US NARA Kriegsberichter collection. A SS-Standarten-Oberjunker
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