SS-Division "Handschar" photos

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Ivan Ž.
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Re: SS-Division "Handschar" photos

Post by Ivan Ž. » 01 Feb 2020 03:09

FlyingStukas wrote:
31 Jan 2020 01:31
...in Neuhammer. I vividly remember photos from the Kriegsberichter website where the divisional taylors were photographed whilst sewing the Fez...
Ivan Ž. wrote:
31 Jan 2020 01:37
no one was pictured sewing a fez, but some of the men were only pictured wearing a fez, probably only for propaganda purposes.
FlyingStukas wrote:
31 Jan 2020 01:45
edit (in any case, the standard-issue Fez was widely distributed by the time of the arrival of the Grand Mufti, maybe even before.
At the time of the Grand Mufti's visit (note that the division was already half-year old), besides the officers (who wore red fezzes), only the Stabsjägerkompanie was equipped with (field-grey) fezzes and it was heavily photographed (and filmed) for propaganda purposes: lined-up and parading before the Grand Mufti, previously doing rifle drills, resting in the barracks, reading Mufti's pamphlet "Islam und Judentum"... Quote, Hartmut Schmid: "Div.-Stabs-Kp.; sie war als einzige geschlossene Einheit mit Fez ausgerüstet." (Judging by the photos, some propaganda men were also issued fezzes.) So, all those soldiers pictured with fezzes at the time basically belonged to a single company. As I wrote, photos can be quite misleading sometimes.

Cheers,
Ivan

PS
As I also mentioned before, the early field-grey fezzes (seen in the Neuhammer photos), which were too tall, were later shortened.

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Ivan Ž.
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Re: SS-Division "Handschar" photos

Post by Ivan Ž. » 01 Feb 2020 12:24

Ivan Ž. wrote:
31 Jan 2020 01:37
the Neuhammer photos are also debatable; no one was pictured sewing a fez, but some of the men were only pictured wearing a fez, probably only for propaganda purposes.
Here's why: notice two fezzes being worn by four different persons and the same persons shown as tailors/shoemakers and as soldiers who came in to try on the uniforms. This is why I believe the photos were simply staged for propaganda purposes. (The photos were taken in late October 1943, by the way.)
Falkowski 053b.jpg
Cheers,
Ivan
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balkanguy44
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Re: SS-Division "Handschar" photos

Post by balkanguy44 » 01 Feb 2020 13:06

Ivan Ž. wrote:
01 Feb 2020 12:24
Ivan Ž. wrote:
31 Jan 2020 01:37
the Neuhammer photos are also debatable; no one was pictured sewing a fez, but some of the men were only pictured wearing a fez, probably only for propaganda purposes.
Here's why: notice two fezzes being worn by four different persons and the same persons shown as tailors/shoemakers and as soldiers who came in to try on the uniforms. This is why I believe the photos were simply staged for propaganda purposes. (The photos were taken in late October 1943, by the way.)
Falkowski 053b.jpg

Cheers,
Ivan
Interesting! Didn't know that there was such a shortage on Fezzes in 1943.
Cheers,
BG44

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Ivan Ž.
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Re: SS-Division "Handschar" photos

Post by Ivan Ž. » 01 Feb 2020 13:38

Ivan Ž. wrote:
01 Feb 2020 03:09
(Judging by the photos, some propaganda men were also issued fezzes.)
Referring to this guy:
Prop.jpg
A bit later, when the Grand Mufti reviewed the Stabsjägerkompanie, the cameraman didn't wear a fez (if it's the same cameraman, and it appears that it is, he probably switched to the side cap because it's easier to keep it on the head while holding a camera).
Prop2.jpg
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Re: SS-Division "Handschar" photos

Post by FlyingStukas » 01 Feb 2020 14:52

Great work, Ivan.

I had my share of doubts as to what the actual number of issued fezzes was, I would agree with the premise that the limited amount they had was issued for propaganda purposes. However, this still brings us to the point that no actual "Albanerfezzes" were made or available in the year of 1943. When did their creation become a priority for the Handschar Division, or at what time was the idea brought forth for discussion?

(these scarcely issued fezzes, still being a bit too tall, were nevertheless close or identical to the final product)

Cheers,
Filip
Cheers,
Filip

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Ivan Ž.
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Re: SS-Division "Handschar" photos

Post by Ivan Ž. » 01 Feb 2020 14:59

Hello, Filip

Albanian fezzes were ordered at the end of November 1943. When they arrived, I don't know. (Maybe Dmitry does.)

Cheers,
Ivan

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Re: SS-Division "Handschar" photos

Post by FlyingStukas » 01 Feb 2020 15:03

and also, what about my previous question? I don't want to drift away from the topic of "Handschar Photos" (and discussion), but did the Albanian fezzes get dropped or simply used scarcely once the 21st SS was established? If you, Ivan, or Dmitry know the answer, I'd be very thankful to hear it.
Cheers,
Filip

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Re: SS-Division "Handschar" photos

Post by Ivan Ž. » 01 Feb 2020 15:13

I'm waiting for Dmitry to reply, but he probably didn't see the new posts & the question yet. I'm sure he will soon.
Ivan Ž. wrote:
01 Feb 2020 03:09
So, all those soldiers pictured with fezzes at the time basically belonged to a single company.
Here we can see some of the Stabsjäger doing rifle drills prior to the Grand Mufti's visit (pay attention to the three men in red frame).
StJg1.jpg
And here we can see those same three men, and other Stabsjäger, pictured escorting the Grand Mufti after his visit.
StJg2.jpg
...and again, during the RFSS visit.
StJg3.jpg
Cheers,
Ivan
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Re: SS-Division "Handschar" photos

Post by AlifRafikKhan » 01 Feb 2020 17:30

Thank your for the information, Ivan.

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Re: SS-Division "Handschar" photos

Post by DFrolov1992 » 01 Feb 2020 21:03

FlyingStukas wrote:
01 Feb 2020 15:03
and also, what about my previous question? I don't want to drift away from the topic of "Handschar Photos" (and discussion), but did the Albanian fezzes get dropped or simply used scarcely once the 21st SS was established? If you, Ivan, or Dmitry know the answer, I'd be very thankful to hear it.
Hello!

The idea of ​​using Albanian hats in the SS-Division "Handschar" was connected with the need to determine the cultural identity of the Albanians and personally belonged to H. Himmler. As with the fez of Bosnian Muslims, the use of Albanian hats as part of the soldiers uniforms was connected with the propaganda component of the division emphasizing its Muslim status. In November 1943 Himmler discussed this topic with the leader of the SS-Wirtschafts-und Verwaltungshauptamt (SS-WVHA), Oswald Pohl.

First, Moroccan-style fez were used (those that you see on the bulk of the division’s military personnel), which, in accordance with Himmler’s order, were cut and repainted. In the photographs, these fez (the correct name is "ćulaje") are clearly distinguishable from fez that were later made specifically on the basis of already national Albanian hats. For example, you can see it on General Sauberzweig at the time of presentation of awards to the Albanian battalion. It is worth noting that not all Albanians wore these fez because part of the Albanian soldiers did not serve in I./28, but was in other units of the division, where they used conventional hats. After the personnel of I./28 was sent to Skanderbeg in early May 1944, the Albanians for the most part stopped using fez and switched to the usual headgear of German mountain shooters (Bergmütze).

This was due to the desire of the Albanian government of Mehdi Bey Frasheri to abandon the fez as a symbol of Turkish rule and the pronounced guardianship of the unit on the part of Islam, since Albania's domestic policy was based on national, not religious principles (such as in Bosnia and Herzegovina). Thus, the religious status of the soldiers was leveled, and the propaganda of the SS division “Skanderbeg” accordingly did not focus on the Muslim component.

P.S. Some Albanian soldiers still continued to wear their fez after transferring to SS-Division "Skanderbeg"

Best regards
Dmitrii
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Re: SS-Division "Handschar" photos

Post by FlyingStukas » 01 Feb 2020 21:16

Dmitry! Brilliant, thank you. So it was actually a decision by the Albanian gov't to stop using elements and legacy from the Ottoman rule, interesting. Also thank you for the additional info, that some Muslim men still wore the previously issued Albanerfez in the Skanderbeg.

Would you say the desire for this type of identification (specific headgear) came from Himmler, rather than the core of the Albanian volunters?

Cheers,
Filip
Cheers,
Filip

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Re: SS-Division "Handschar" photos

Post by DFrolov1992 » 01 Feb 2020 21:26

FlyingStukas wrote:
01 Feb 2020 21:16
Dmitry! Brilliant, thank you. So it was actually a decision by the Albanian gov't to stop using elements and legacy from the Ottoman rule, interesting. Also thank you for the additional info, that some Muslim men still wore the previously issued Albanerfez in the Skanderbeg.

Would you say the desire for this type of identification (specific headgear) came from Himmler, rather than the core of the Albanian volunters?

Cheers,
Filip
Judging by the documents I have, Himmler’s appeal to Pohl was the first. In addition, the I battalion as an "Albanian" unit began to form in October 1943.

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Re: SS-Division "Handschar" photos

Post by balkanguy44 » 03 Feb 2020 19:40

Hello!

I've found something interesting. Here we see Croatian "Home Guard" officers but it was taken at the "Meldestelle" for the Handschar Division in Zagreb, 1943. Does anybody know the reason why they were there? Maybe they were took into consideration for being officers in the Handschar Division.
Croatian Officers (13th SS).png
(Source: https://invenio.bundesarchiv.de/basys2- ... nu6JQ2KE-J#)
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Cheers,
BG44

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Re: SS-Division "Handschar" photos

Post by DFrolov1992 » 04 Feb 2020 11:22

balkanguy44 wrote:
03 Feb 2020 19:40
Hello!

I've found something interesting. Here we see Croatian "Home Guard" officers but it was taken at the "Meldestelle" for the Handschar Division in Zagreb, 1943. Does anybody know the reason why they were there? Maybe they were took into consideration for being officers in the Handschar Division.

Croatian Officers (13th SS).png
(Source: https://invenio.bundesarchiv.de/basys2- ... nu6JQ2KE-J#)
Hello BG44

This group of officers is at the headquarters of the formation of the division in Zagreb. Your guess is correct. In accordance with "Circular of the Ministry of Armed Forces No. 1573 of 11.05.1943" allowed the formation of voluntary formations based on soldiers, officers and non-commissioned officers of the NDH army. For example, guided by this order, by June 10 1943, 30 active officers and 4 reserve officers filed applications for joining the division.

Best regards
Dmitrii

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Re: SS-Division "Handschar" photos

Post by balkanguy44 » 04 Feb 2020 11:42

Hello Dmitrii

Thank you for the information. I have seen pictures of ordinary soldiers volunteering for the division, that's why I was surprised to see officers.

Best regards
BG44
Cheers,
BG44

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