The Indian Volunteers in the German Army and Waffen-SS

Discussions on the foreigners (volunteers as well as conscripts) fighting in the German Wehrmacht, those collaborating with the Axis and other period Far Right organizations. Hosted by George Lepre.
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hoot72
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Re: Indian Legion/Waffen SS Units and rapes

#196

Post by hoot72 » 13 Apr 2017, 10:11

Ironmachine wrote:
The whole point of the formation of the Indian Legion was Nationalistic in nature.
Maybe for Bose and his most close collaborators, but what about the Germans? After all, there were the Germans who created, funded and trained the Indian Legion that, it must not be forgotten, was a unit of the German Army.
It was essentially to embarrass the British high command and to use the Indian Legion as a propaganda tool in 1942. A very very expensive propaganda tool if you think about it as the funding could have been better spent perhaps on raising a foreign legion from within Europe which the german's could maybe have actually sent to the Eastern Front instead if you think about it in that sense.

By the time 1943 comes around suddenly, Hitler finds out that Bose has negotiated a set of terms and conditions of the formation of the Legion in which include being put out of harm's away from being ánnhilated (i.e no front line service) to be part of a German effort.


This infuriated him and though this is speculation, hammered them in late 44 during an SS conference pertaining to the handling of the foreign legions (who by this time had all been absorbed into the Waffen SS) by stating they were essentially useless, were poor soldiers and would run when faced with British forces. He ridiculed them and that was that as far as legion 950 was concerned.

Other than a short period of combat against French and American Shermans (anti tank role) and small arms combat, they were retreating for much of the time back across the Rhine. I have the dates which I can dig for you as far as which towns they passed through on their retreat and what months.

At one point, they successfully knocked out 4-10 French Shermans and a number of American Shermans but lost in excess of over 1000 men during the period due to air attacks by allied ground attack fighters and combat, to soldiers running off to surrender to advancing allied forces, to men who joined the french resistence and in some cases, some being lost and never found.

A number were arrested and shot for 4-6 cases of rape and others for war crimes once leadership began to waver and the main component of officers surrendered to the allies.
Whever we went, whatever we did, we quoted the songs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgUhjWJVVCQ&t=199s

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Marcus
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Re: The Indian Volunteers in the German Army/Waffen SS

#197

Post by Marcus » 14 Apr 2017, 11:35

Several posts not discussing rapes where moved here from the Indian Legion/Waffen SS Units and rapes thread.


Orwell1984
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Re: The Indian Volunteers in the German Army/Waffen SS

#198

Post by Orwell1984 » 14 Apr 2017, 15:44

Possibly of interest:

The Last Chapter of the Indian Legion
Article by JOACHIM OESTERHELD
from Südasien-Chronik -South Asia Chronicle 5/2015,

http://edoc.hu-berlin.de/suedasien/band ... DF/121.pdf

hoot72
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Re: The Indian Volunteers in the German Army/Waffen SS

#199

Post by hoot72 » 15 Apr 2017, 05:37

Question.

What would a regiment consist of as far as numbers are concerned~? And is the breakdown of a typical squad correct below?

Trying to understand the difference between a German Regiment vs a German Division as far as manpower and the type of units that would be in such a panzer grenadier unit.

Panzergrenadier Regiment 950 (indische), indicating the unit was partially motorised and were an anti-tank Regiment for the most part.
It was equipped with 81 motor vehicles of various purposes (armoured personnel carriers, troop transports, logistical trucks, motorbikes, as well as a small number of Tiger 2 tanks and 700 horses. In this structure, the legion came to consist of:
I. Batallion – infantry companies 1 to 4
II. Batallion– infantry companies 5 to 8
III. Batallion – infantry companies 9 to 12
Infanteriegeschütz Kompanie-infantry-gun company with infantry support artillery pieces and mortar teams
Panzerjäger Kompanie-anti-tank company – armed with six 75mm anti-tank guns
Pionier Kompanie (engineer company)
Ehrenwachkompanie (honour guard company) and camp security unit (no dogs)

Standard German Rifle Company (1942-43)
Headquarters

Headquarters Platoon

3 ATR Sections
1 x 7.92mm ATR

3 Mortar Sections
1 x 50mm Light Mortar

4 Rifle Platoons

Headquarters

1 Squad
2 x 9mm SMG
6 x G98 Rifle

3 Squads
2 x 9mm SMG
1 x 7.92mm LMG
1 x G98 Rifle (Assistant LMG Gunner)
6 x G98 Rifle

Heavy Weapons Platoon

HMG Section
1 x 7.92mm HMG

MMG Section
1 x 7.92mm MMG

Note:
ATR=Anti-tank rifle
SMG=Sub Machine Gun (Short range)
LMG=Light Machine Gun (medium range for squad suppression fire)
HMG=Heavy Machine Gun (long range for heavy squad suppression fire)
MMG=Medium Machine Gun (medium range for squad suppression fire)
Whever we went, whatever we did, we quoted the songs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgUhjWJVVCQ&t=199s

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Ironmachine
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Re: The Indian Volunteers in the German Army/Waffen SS

#200

Post by Ironmachine » 15 Apr 2017, 09:14

hoot72 wrote:Panzergrenadier Regiment 950 (indische), indicating the unit was partially motorised and were an anti-tank Regiment for the most part.
AFAIK the unit was never named Panzer-Grenadier-Regiment 905. And it was never an anti-tank regiment, but an infantry one.
hoot72 wrote:It was equipped with [...]a small number of Tiger 2 tanks...
8O 8O 8O
Do you really have a reliable source for that? AFAIK, the only Tiger the Indian Legion had was the one in its shield (and it was not a tank, that's for sure).

hoot72
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Re: The Indian Volunteers in the German Army/Waffen SS

#201

Post by hoot72 » 15 Apr 2017, 11:18

Ironmachine wrote:
hoot72 wrote:Panzergrenadier Regiment 950 (indische), indicating the unit was partially motorised and were an anti-tank Regiment for the most part.
AFAIK the unit was never named Panzer-Grenadier-Regiment 905. And it was never an anti-tank regiment, but an infantry one.
hoot72 wrote:It was equipped with [...]a small number of Tiger 2 tanks...
8O 8O 8O
Do you really have a reliable source for that? AFAIK, the only Tiger the Indian Legion had was the one in its shield (and it was not a tank, that's for sure).

Images from archive collections for your kind review.
You will note the small tank (panzer IV?) and the pak anti tank gun and the camoflaged helmets (pea body Waffen-SS) being used by the troops.

Hope it helps a bit with your research.

They were trained as an infantry unit and attached to German Heer infantry ID units in 1943-44 but were designated a panzer grenadier regiment after the normandy landings and saw action against american and french tanks before retreating. Much of their contact after that were against/with french resistence fighters.

And the french were barbaric and inhumane.
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Last edited by hoot72 on 16 Apr 2017, 01:12, edited 3 times in total.
Whever we went, whatever we did, we quoted the songs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgUhjWJVVCQ&t=199s

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Marcus
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Re: The Indian Volunteers in the German Army/Waffen SS

#202

Post by Marcus » 15 Apr 2017, 11:51

hoot72 wrote:
willi_20.jpg
willi_20.jpg (21.79 KiB) Viewed 928 times
the image of the museum piece of a indian tank commander from the punjab museum in Amritsar in uniform with his headphones..
That photo is from the Achtung Panzer site and has got nothing to do with India. http://www.achtungpanzer.com/unif.htm

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Re: The Indian Volunteers in the German Army/Waffen SS

#203

Post by Michael Kenny » 15 Apr 2017, 12:18

hoot72 wrote:
LSShrIe.jpg
Images from archive collections for your kind review.
You will note the small tank (panzer IV?) and the pak anti tank gun and the camoflaged helmets (pea body Waffen-SS) being used by the troops.
The 'tank' is a Italian SP taken over by the Germans and if I remember correctly is an IWM photo of Indian Troops in Italy in 1945 They never received or crewed Tiger tanks of any description.

http://i.imgur.com/LSShrIe.jpg
Last edited by Marcus on 17 Apr 2017, 12:10, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added the attachment here as it was deleted in the original post

histan
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Re: The Indian Volunteers in the German Army/Waffen SS

#204

Post by histan » 15 Apr 2017, 13:23

This is the entry in Tessin:
IR 950.jpg
Regards

John

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Ironmachine
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Re: The Indian Volunteers in the German Army/Waffen SS

#205

Post by Ironmachine » 15 Apr 2017, 17:21

hoot72 wrote:You will note the small tank (panzer IV?) and the pak anti tank gun and the camoflaged helmets (pea body Waffen-SS) being used by the troops as well as the image of the museum piece of a indian tank commander from the punjab museum in Amritsar in uniform with his headphones.
Hope it helps a bit with your research.
With all due respect, if you can't even tell the difference between a Panzer IV and an Italian semovente, you should be worried about your research, not mine.
Other posters had already debunked your claims about the pictures you posted, so there is no need for any further comment.
hoot72 wrote:They were trained as an infantry unit and attached to German Heer infantry ID units in 1943-44 but were designated a panzer grenadier regiment after the normandy landings[...]
Again I ask: any reliable source for that?
hoot72 wrote:and saw action against american and french tanks before retreating.
I think it would be difficult to find a German units in Normandy that did not see action against Allied tanks. But seeing action against american and french tanks does not make Infanterie-Regiment 950 (indische) an anti-tank regiment.
hoot72 wrote:And the french were barbaric and inhumane.
:roll:

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Re: The Indian Volunteers in the German Army/Waffen SS

#206

Post by antwony » 15 Apr 2017, 17:57

Ironmachine wrote:Yes, that was the point of my question. The Germans were surely well aware of the propaganda value of the unit, and some additional hot bodies at the front would certainly not hurt their war effort, but did they really considered the possibility of an independent India?
The Germans did plan some pretty James Bond style missions involving false flagged ships, paradrops and infiltration of agents into India through Afghanistan. Operations against India stopped in early 1942.
histan wrote:This is the entry in Tessin:

Regards

John
Good find, does anyone have anymore information about the 159 Static division, which the Indians were attached to?

Was it 50,000 strong, including Todt organisation workers, with only 10,000 combatants? Or was that the Bordeaux area as a whole? Ich nein språken ze Deutsch too good
michael mills wrote:What was being alleged by Ironmachine was that the fact that the Indian soldiers who joined the Legion Freies Indian had previously volunteered to fight for the British meant that they could not have been motivated by the desire to overthrow British rule in their home country. The point of my post was to show that the example of the Indian Mutiny in 1857 (what Indians call the War of Liberation) demonstrates the untenability of that allegation.
Think your misusing the word untenable. That the Indian Army units had proved treacherous in the past doesn't change the fact the members of Legion Freies India had voluntarily signed up to function as defenders of the Indian Empire. The events of 1857 don't change the fact that for all of its long existence the British Indian Army was almost entirely locally recruited.

Post facto attempts to claim that WW2 era Indian Army traitors were nationalist heroes fighting against colonialism is far closer to untenable than anything Iron Machine claimed.



----

Part of the post was moved to viewtopic.php?f=6&t=227602&p=2073457#p2073457

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Marcus
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Re: The Indian Volunteers in the German Army/Waffen SS

#207

Post by Marcus » 15 Apr 2017, 18:48

This thread is not the place to discuss war crimes.

histan
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Re: The Indian Volunteers in the German Army/Waffen SS

#208

Post by histan » 16 Apr 2017, 00:53

159 Res Div was under LXIV Korps and deployed between the Spanish border and Bordeaux. It stayed there until taking part in the retreat of LXIV AK in August and September 1944.

From "Rückzug the German Retreat from France 1944"
"The 159 Reserve Division , commanded by Lieutenant General Alban Nake, was rated as having only limited defensive capability. like the 16th Infantry Division it had three regiments totaling seven infantry battalions. The increased numbers of foreign volunteers along the Atlantic coast indicated the growing shortage of well-trained German soldiers in the German Army of the West's entire area of operations. The 950th Indian Grenadier Regiment [note Infanterie Regiments had been renamed Grenadier Regiments and these must not be confused with Panzer Grenadier Regiments, which the most definitely were not ]with its three battalions, for example, took over a part of the coastal defences and Italian volunteer soldiers were assigned to defend the island of Noirmoutier.
The approximately 24,000 German army soldiers in the sector of the LXIV Army Corps included some 8,500 men of other nationalities. They included 1,500 Italians; 4,000 troops of the 360th Cossack Regiment; and 3,000 in the Indian Regiment" [The source for these numbers is given as the OB West Ia files for August 1944]

And:
"According to Sachs's order [KG LXIV Korps] issued on 19 August, three major march movement groups were to be formed:
1 The Northern Group (in the Loire - Poitiers area) under the command of Lieutenant General Ernst Haeckel. His 16th Infantry Division would be the nucleus of the group that in the end numbered 20,000 to 25,000 men.
2 The Central March Movement Group (south-west of Poitiers) under the command of Major General Hans Täglichsbeck with 12,000 to 13,000 men. To accomplish his combat missions, he only had available the 360th Cossack Regiment and the 950th Indian Infantry Regiment.
3 The Southern Group (Bordeaux area) ......"

More to follow on the Central March Movement Group.

So far, I have found no indication that 950 Indian Regiment was deployed to Normandy, no evidence that in encountered American forces (they were to the north beyond 16th Infantry Division), and no evidence that it encountered any tanks. All indications are that it fought the FFI before being withdrawn to reform in September 1944.

Regards

john

hoot72
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Re: The Indian Volunteers in the German Army/Waffen SS

#209

Post by hoot72 » 16 Apr 2017, 01:15

histan wrote:159 Res Div was under LXIV Korps and deployed between the Spanish border and Bordeaux. It stayed there until taking part in the retreat of LXIV AK in August and September 1944.

From "Rückzug the German Retreat from France 1944"
"The 159 Reserve Division , commanded by Lieutenant General Alban Nake, was rated as having only limited defensive capability. like the 16th Infantry Division it had three regiments totaling seven infantry battalions. The increased numbers of foreign volunteers along the Atlantic coast indicated the growing shortage of well-trained German soldiers in the German Army of the West's entire area of operations. The 950th Indian Grenadier Regiment [note Infanterie Regiments had been renamed Grenadier Regiments and these must not be confused with Panzer Grenadier Regiments, which the most definitely were not ]with its three battalions, for example, took over a part of the coastal defences and Italian volunteer soldiers were assigned to defend the island of Noirmoutier.
The approximately 24,000 German army soldiers in the sector of the LXIV Army Corps included some 8,500 men of other nationalities. They included 1,500 Italians; 4,000 troops of the 360th Cossack Regiment; and 3,000 in the Indian Regiment" [The source for these numbers is given as the OB West Ia files for August 1944]

And:
"According to Sachs's order [KG LXIV Korps] issued on 19 August, three major march movement groups were to be formed:
1 The Northern Group (in the Loire - Poitiers area) under the command of Lieutenant General Ernst Haeckel. His 16th Infantry Division would be the nucleus of the group that in the end numbered 20,000 to 25,000 men.
2 The Central March Movement Group (south-west of Poitiers) under the command of Major General Hans Täglichsbeck with 12,000 to 13,000 men. To accomplish his combat missions, he only had available the 360th Cossack Regiment and the 950th Indian Infantry Regiment.
3 The Southern Group (Bordeaux area) ......"

More to follow on the Central March Movement Group.

So far, I have found no indication that 950 Indian Regiment was deployed to Normandy, no evidence that in encountered American forces (they were to the north beyond 16th Infantry Division), and no evidence that it encountered any tanks. All indications are that it fought the FFI before being withdrawn to reform in September 1944.

Regards

john
Thank you for clarifying John.

I would direct you to look at the awards issued out to Indians from the 950 and the specific reasons they were awarded the knight's cross for anti-tank engagements. You will note in one engagement and an award issued, it was for knocking out 4 french tanks and american tanks.

Thanks.
Whever we went, whatever we did, we quoted the songs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgUhjWJVVCQ&t=199s

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Re: The Indian Volunteers in the German Army/Waffen SS

#210

Post by histan » 16 Apr 2017, 01:40

Details of the Central March Group from FMS A-886
Retreat from France 01.jpg
Retreat from France 02.jpg
Retreat from France 02.jpg (93.83 KiB) Viewed 969 times
Retreat from France 03.jpg
Retreat from France 03.jpg (94.85 KiB) Viewed 969 times
Retreat from France 04.jpg
Retreat from France 04.jpg (92.03 KiB) Viewed 969 times
No mention of allied tanks by the commander of the March Group.

The information I have found relates to the period up until its withdrawal from France and transfer to the SS

I have no information on what it did as a part of the SS.

Regards

John

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