The Indian Volunteers in the German Army and Waffen-SS

Discussions on the foreigners (volunteers as well as conscripts) fighting in the German Wehrmacht, those collaborating with the Axis and other period Far Right organizations. Hosted by George Lepre.
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Sid Guttridge
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Re: The Indian Volunteers in the German Army and Waffen-SS

#241

Post by Sid Guttridge » 02 May 2017, 17:36

Due to this thread I bought the book The Sign of the Tiger.

The regiment certainly possessed 50mm anti-tank guns, as photos in it show, so the necessary materiel to knock out Shermans was in-house.

The author, who was a German interpreter with the unit, but was not present at the action, gives credence to the story about knocking out two tanks and the Iron Cross award.

I highly recommend this book.

In haste,

Sid.
Last edited by Sid Guttridge on 03 May 2017, 11:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Marcus
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Re: The Indian Volunteers in the German Army and Waffen-SS

#242

Post by Marcus » 02 May 2017, 18:07

Sid Guttridge wrote:The author, who was a German interpreter with the unit, but was not present at the action, gives credence to the story about knocking out two tanks and the Iron Cross award.
So the book confirms that the claimed awards of Knight's Crosses for that action was nonsense. Thanks Sid.


histan
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Re: The Indian Volunteers in the German Army and Waffen-SS

#243

Post by histan » 02 May 2017, 18:10

Hi Sid

A date and location would be valuable, since the OP has produced neither. Once we have these it may be possible to identify which allied unit was involved.

No reason to believe that it didn't have ant-tank guns - see Lexikon der Wehrmacht - http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... /IR950.htm

By the way details of Panzer Grenadier Regiment

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... derung.htm

Also "designated anti-tank units" were originally called Panzer-Abwehr-Abteilungen later re-named to give them a more "positive" name as Panzerjäger-Abteilungen.

Regards

John
Last edited by histan on 02 May 2017, 18:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Ironmachine
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Re: The Indian Volunteers in the German Army and Waffen-SS

#244

Post by Ironmachine » 02 May 2017, 18:16

Sid Guttridge wrote:The author, who was a German interpreter with the unit, but was not present at the action, gives credence to the story about knocking out two tanks and the Iron Cross award.
It should be noted that hoot72's claim was about a Knight's Cross award. Just as he previously claimed in another post (that now can be found in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=227602) that the autor of the book:
Rudolf Hartog is the ONLY reliable author on the subject given he commanded and was with the Indian Legion from the very beginning when the unit was formed.

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Re: The Indian Volunteers in the German Army and Waffen-SS

#245

Post by Marcus » 02 May 2017, 19:45

The idea that a commander of a unit would be the most reliable source is a very strange claim in itself and a claim that only such a source would be reliable is just bizarre.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: The Indian Volunteers in the German Army and Waffen-SS

#246

Post by Sid Guttridge » 03 May 2017, 17:37

Hi Guys,

Hartog did not command the Indian Legion, but he does seem like a pretty reliable and well informed witness.

The author of Sign of the Tiger, Rudolf Hartog, gives his bona fides in the introduction, “I served with the Indian Legion as an interpreter for Hindustani and came to it from active service in Russia, and I was one of the last three to witness its end.” According to the bibliography (p.185) this was with 10 and 12 Infantry Companies of 3 Battalion. He compiled the book from his own memoirs, the unpublished diaries of several German and Indian members of the Indian Legion, research in the Bundesarchiv and several other archives in West and East Germany, and from some published wartime works.

According to an OB on pp.133-134, apart from three infantry battalions, the Indian Legion (Infantry Regiment 950) had 13 IG Company (which photos indicate had 7.5cm leIG 18 infantry guns), 14 PAK Company, (which photos show had 5cm Pak 38 anti-tank guns), 15 Pioneer Company and a s.Ind. Batterie (which presumably had 15cm sIG 33 infantry guns).

On pp.148-149 Hartog writes the following:

In Nuits-St. Georges the light howitzers and anti-tank guns, led by Sukhdev Choudry, were able to hold the American spearheads for a while.

The retreating columns continued the same night, through the vineyards of Burgundy on which the grapes of the famous red wines of Burgundy were ripening, and managed to get through Dijon almost unharmed. When the enemy advance came to a standstill the men had a few days rest at Champlitte and were able, in several day marches and shorter stages, to get to Remiremont, over Jussey, Aillevilliers and Plombieres and the foothills of the Vosges which separate Germany from France. There they set up a defence line seventy kilometres from the German frontier and the legionaries were relegated to digging trenches and some anti-tank gun and infantry howitzer platoons were thrown into battle to confront enemy tanks. A German newspaper of 21 September gives a dramatic report of one encounter on the line between the Swiss frontier and the gateway to Burgundy:

“The Indian volunteers fought bravely. Mohammed Rashid, the 19-year old lance corporal from 14 Company stood with his anti-tank gun in a cornfield outside a small town north of Vesoul and lay in wait for the American tanks. The first enemy tanks awaited the dusk to appear round the bend of the road. Scarcely had they reached the road when Mohammed Rashid opened fire, smashing the leading tank with his first shot. As the following tanks returned the fire, he remained cold bloodedly at his post and set a second tank ablaze. Three other tanks exploded on mines. In spite of continuous enemy fire, the Indian volunteer held his position, firing till all the tanks retreated. This was the end of the breakthrough of the enemy tanks at this place.


Footnote 9 on p.149 states, “Mohammed Rashid was awarded the Iron Cross for this” On p.157 he mentions that a press conference was later (October?) held in Berlin including the German commander, two Indian officers and the Japanese Ambassador. “Lance Corporal Mohammed Rashid, who had been decorated for bravery, was also invited to Berlin.

The author records on p.142 that the order to retreat, “…..finally came in the last week of August 1944, probably on 26 or 27”. He later, on p.149, records, “The Legion reached Alsace over Gerardmer, crossing Col de Bonhomme in the night of 16/17 September….”. Unfortunately, he gives no intervening dates.

From this it would appear that there were at least two clashes between the Indian Legion’s 14 PAK company and American tanks, one at Nuits St. Georges that had no recorded losses, and one later “outside a small town north of Vesoul”. In the latter action it appears that Mohammed Rashid hit two American tanks and mines (perhaps laid by the pioneers of 15 Company?) claimed three more. It also seems clear that Mohammed Rashid was awarded the Iron Cross.

The only caveat I would have for anyone trying to match the above place names with the movements of US armour is that there were also French units in the general area that also used US tanks. In a map on p.146, the author shows “3 US Div, II Frz. Korps” passing through Beaune and Dijon and 7th US Army driving on Besancon, south of Vesoul.

Personally, I find the author credible, reporting not only positive aspects of the Legion’s activities but also instances of indiscipline, such as a refusal by some men to deploy to the Channel defences in 1943 and rape cases during the retreat in 1944.

I highly recommend this book. The author was present, had command of the necessary languages and, while sympathetic to the Indians, does not view the activities of the Legion through purely rose-tinted spectacles.

Cheers,

Sid

P.S. You can get a copy for as little as £4 plus postage at: https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_no ... +the+Tiger

histan
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Re: The Indian Volunteers in the German Army and Waffen-SS

#247

Post by histan » 03 May 2017, 19:45

Thanks Sid

There is the possibility of a clash with 1st French Armoured Division north west of Nuits St George along the route that seems to have been taken by the Legion. See one of my earlier posts for details.

I'll have a look at 3 US Division for dates and route of advance.

Regards

John

Michael Kenny
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Re: The Indian Volunteers in the German Army and Waffen-SS

#248

Post by Michael Kenny » 03 May 2017, 19:53

5 cm AT Guns were for sure second line equipment in 1944. Any unit given them was not expected to be spending much time at the sharp end.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: The Indian Volunteers in the German Army and Waffen-SS

#249

Post by Sid Guttridge » 03 May 2017, 20:10

Hi Michael,

Yes, but a quick google indicates that a Sherman was vulnerable from the front to a Pak38 at 500m and from the side at 1,000m. If true, the story remains plausible.

Furthermore, as German infantry regiments began the war with 3.7cm anti-tank guns, the Indian Legion could have been worse off and wasn't as far behind the curve as it might have been.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: The Indian Volunteers in the German Army and Waffen-SS

#250

Post by michael mills » 04 May 2017, 01:39

So it would appear that the Indian Legion was a credible military force, which is not surprising since, as Sid Guttridge has previously pointed out, it consisted of professional British-trained soldiers.

It was not just a gaggle of rapists and looters as has been claimed by some posters in this forum.

Michael Kenny
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Re: The Indian Volunteers in the German Army and Waffen-SS

#251

Post by Michael Kenny » 04 May 2017, 02:46

michael mills wrote:So it would appear that the Indian Legion was a credible military force, which is not surprising since, as Sid Guttridge has previously pointed out, it consisted of professional British-trained soldiers.
Self-praise is no praise. Late war German accounts of lone soldiers knocking out numbers of enemy tanks are legion but in 99.9% of the cases it turns out that one individual is picked out and credit for every kill in a 5 mile radius gets awarded to him. It was a product of the time when they were trying to keep their soldiers fighting and the heroic superior single soldier standing up to and defeating hordes of the inferior enemy was central to the narrative they were pushing. If you want I can give you a specific example where 4 known British tank losses resulted in 3 German soldiers getting a KC each for the combined destruction of 20+ tanks. It is called 'propaganda'.
That said I decided to have a closer look at the fighting around Vesoul. The US 3rd Infantry Division took the town and its surroundings and it had the support of 756 Tank Battalion.

The 3rd ID History is here:

https://archive.org/stream/HistoryOfThe ... 7/mode/2up

page 252-263.

They report heavy and difficult fighting but no reverses and all objectives taken with no setbacks or withdrawals.
756 did lose tanks at Vesoul, As with all Tank Units they took losses.
Here are 3 known 756 wrecks at Vesoul. Note the pair are obvious mine victims.
756TB M4 Sherman (2).jpg
756TB M4 Sherman (1)dr.jpg
Now I know my next bit will be ignored but the fact 756 TB lost tanks at Vesoul is not confirmation the Indian(s) knocked them out. Tanks get knocked out all the time and the only Army I know that elevates every tank casualty it inflicts into a great victory is German. The devoted here will not notice the words 'Vesoul was captured' and instead will fixate of the huge victory they see with the 3 knocked out Shermans -of which 2 are recoverable!

Michael Kenny
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Re: The Indian Volunteers in the German Army and Waffen-SS

#252

Post by Michael Kenny » 04 May 2017, 03:20

AAR 756 TB September 10-15th 1944
756 TB,,,,,,, (1).jpg
756 TB,,,,,,, (1).jpg (88.76 KiB) Viewed 1809 times
756 TB,,,,,,, (2).jpg
756 TB,,,,,,, (2).jpg (61 KiB) Viewed 1809 times

michael mills
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Re: The Indian Volunteers in the German Army and Waffen-SS

#253

Post by michael mills » 04 May 2017, 07:33

Now I know my next bit will be ignored but the fact 756 TB lost tanks at Vesoul is not confirmation the Indian(s) knocked them out. Tanks get knocked out all the time and the only Army I know that elevates every tank casualty it inflicts into a great victory is German. The devoted here will not notice the words 'Vesoul was captured' and instead will fixate of the huge victory they see with the 3 knocked out Shermans -of which 2 are recoverable!
Careful, your paranoia is showing.

The issue here is not whether the Indian Legion achieved great victories against the Americans and/or French, but whether they did any fighting at all, rather than being just a gaggle of rapists and looters. For example, on another thread in the War Crimes Section, Antwony wrote this about the Indian Legion:
The only combat they saw was against belligerent French woman who didn't appreciated getting gang raped and French civilians trying to defend their property as they raped and pillaged their way back to Germany after the Allies had landed in other sectors.
And on the same thread, Loic wrote this:
......this concerns especially nothing more than a band of mercenaries traitors and recognized criminals totally romanticized and heroized by many people on the web...
The material posted by Sid Guttridge refutes that viciously biased portrayal of the Indian Legion as nothing but a "band of mercenaries, traitors and criminals" who engaged only in rape and pillage and never risked their lives in real combat. Of course a small number of members of the Indian Legion did commit rapes, but it has not been demonstrated that the incidence of raping and pillaging by them was any greater than that of raping and pillaging by members of Allied forces.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: The Indian Volunteers in the German Army and Waffen-SS

#254

Post by Sid Guttridge » 04 May 2017, 17:32

Hi Guys,

So the right sort of action, involving a US tank hit by anti-tank fire and two others disabled by mines, was fought in about the right place and at about the right time. Whether the Indians did any of this is unclear from US sources, but circumstantial evidence does nothing to contradict the Indian/German version.

Hartog says that the Indian Legion, by and large, kept good march discipline during the retreat and suffered relatively few desertions and even fewer battle casualties. He also notes that they kept better march discipline than some German units, especially those from other services such as the Luftwaffe and the Army's rear echelon.

All the sub-units of the Indian Legion seems still to have been organizationally cohesive at the end of the retreat, but the Germans never risked them at the front again.

Cheers,

Sid.
Last edited by Sid Guttridge on 04 May 2017, 17:49, edited 1 time in total.

Michael Kenny
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Re: The Indian Volunteers in the German Army and Waffen-SS

#255

Post by Michael Kenny » 04 May 2017, 17:49

Sid Guttridge wrote:
So the right sort of action, involving a US tank hit by anti-tank fire and two others disabled by mines, was fought in about the right place and at about the right time. Whether the Indians did any of this is unclear from US sources, but circumstantial evidence does nothing to contradict the Indian/German claims.
Wrong end of the telescope. You look for confirming facts, In action tanks get knocked out all the time. Indeed if you found no tank losses for that day that would make it an a very unusual action.. For the story to be correct several very unlikely ducks have to line up.
1.The indians were the only German soldiers in the area-an area we do not know, ,
2. The man with the AT gun was the only person who fired at US Tanks.
3, The German account of US losses would have to be 100% correct and if you read the AAR you will find the numbers do not match up.
4. The photos we have show the only US tank lost.
5, We have the right Allied Unit.

I make it my business to seek out all Uber-soldier claims where a single German makes a multiple kill claim for Allied tanks in NWE. I always check them out and so far I have not found one that matches the claim. All are greatly inflated as to number of tanks knocked out.
I know you want to believe but do not let your heart rule your brain.

PS.
I know it will be said that I am trying to discredit the soldier but don't forget it was me who found the information, me who found the AAR and me who found the photos and me who posted it all. If I wanted to hide it then all I had to do was .........nothing!

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