Serbian Chetniks in cooperation with axis during WW2

Discussions on the foreigners (volunteers as well as conscripts) fighting in the German Wehrmacht, those collaborating with the Axis and other period Far Right organizations. Hosted by George Lepre.
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George5
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Serbian Chetniks in cooperation with axis during WW2

#1

Post by George5 » 31 May 2005, 09:45

I see that many belives here that Serbian chetniks were antifaschists so I must disapointed them. That is wrong. Not just that they were massive excecutors of inocent civilians in the former Yugoslavia (more than 100 000 people) but they were cooperated with Nazis, Italian fascists and even with Ustasha regime from 1941 until 1945 when they were defeted by Tito's partisans in former Yugoslavia.

Those are pictures of cooperation between Serbian Chetniks of Draza Mihailovic (Serbian King Army), Serbian Ortodox Church and Nazis, Fascists and etc on other side during WW2.

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Allied Attitude Toward the Chetniks

At first, the western Allies had viewed the Chetniks as the core of the resistance movements in Yugoslavia against the invaders. But reports from British parachutists who had joined the fighting forces in Yugoslavia began to reach the West, indicating that the Chetniks' policy was to fight the partisans under Tito, rather than the Germans and their allies.

Consequently, the attitude of the western Allies underwent a change in the second half of 1942, and they switched their aid to the partisans who were fighting the Germany enemy. By the end of 1943, the break between the West and the Chetniks was complete.

The Chetniks had become collaborators and had joined the forces fighting the partisans. After the occupation of Serbia by the partisans and the Red Army, the Chetniks were hunted down. Shortly after the end of the war, Mihajlovic and his men were captured and brought before a Yugoslav national tribunal; most were hanged.

The Chetniks and the Jews

As the Chetniks increased their cooperation with the Germans, their attitude toward the Jews in the areas under their control deteriorated, and they identified the Jews with the hated Communists. There were many instances of Chetniks' murdering Jews or handing them over to the Germans.


Courtesy of:
"Encyclopedia of the Holocaust"
©1990 Macmillan Publishing Company
New York, NY 10022

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Ivan Ž.
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#2

Post by Ivan Ž. » 31 May 2005, 10:50

I don't know how much do you know about chetniks and confusing war in Yugoslavia,
but they were antifashists.
Some chetnik leaders did cooperate with Germans from time to time (without permition of Mihailovic).
Colaborating with Italians was not the same thing as colaboration with Germans.
There were also chetniks led by Kosta Pecanac which were colaborating with Germans
and fighting against Mihailovic's chetniks.
And that about 100 000 civilians...where did you get that information ??? :roll:

etc, etc...
Last edited by Ivan Ž. on 31 May 2005, 11:03, edited 1 time in total.


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#3

Post by Ivan Ž. » 31 May 2005, 11:01

"As the Chetniks increased their cooperation with the Germans, their attitude toward the Jews in the areas under their control deteriorated, and they identified the Jews with the hated Communists. There were many instances of Chetniks' murdering Jews or handing them over to the Germans"

Chetniks were not an anti-semitic movement. Where did you get these informations? :roll:
And where could they find those Jews in woods where they were stationed?
On the other hand, Jews did start many partisan organisations which comited war-crimes.
Well known is the example of Dr Avram Levi.

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#4

Post by G. Trifkovic » 31 May 2005, 13:20

This is a very sensitive topic so let's try to disscuss it a bit in a civilised manner (I'm especially counting on you Ivan ).
Chetniks were not an anti-semitic movement.
Granted. But given the fact that many Jews joined the partisans,isn't it possible that chetniks tried ,from time to time,to curry a favor with the Germans by handing them over captured Jewish partisans?
On the other hand, Jews did start many partisan organisations which comited war-crimes.
Well known is the example of Dr Avram Levi.
Who is Dr. Avram Levi,and what kind of a organisation did he start?
And that about 100 000 civilians...where did you get that information ???
Those 100,000 civilians were mostly Bosnian Muslims,main "targets" (along with the Croats) of Stevan Moljevic' memoranda of 30th June (some other sources mention later date) in which he purposed "Homogeneous Serbia". Many of the killings in the first months of war were acts of revenge (mostly falling on the innocent villages,with no Ustashi connections so far) but slaughters at Foca and in Sandzak (to name the most infamous) were IMO typical acts of genocide.
Po tim analizama, koje daju vrlo slicne rezultate, Jugoslavija je u 2.svj. ratu izgubila oko milijun ljudi, od toga oko 500,000 Srba, 200,000 Hrvata, te 90,000 Bosanskih Muslimana. Sama Bosna i Hercegovina je pretrpjela sljedece gubitke: 164,000 Srba, 64,000 Hrvata, 75,000 Muslimana i 9,000 Zidova. http://www.selopecnik.com/Povjest%20%5BBIH%5D.htm
"Some 75 000 Muslims lost their lives-some 8,1% of the whole population.",Noel Malcolm/BOSNIA-A Short History,p. 257 .
Some chetnik leaders did cooperate with Germans from time to time (without permition of Mihailovic).
In Bosnia MOST of the time,altough the cooperation,in most cases, was agreed upon with the NDH rather than directly with the Germans:

http://www.vojska.net/ww2/ndh/chetniks/chetniks-ndh.asp ,note the references to the microfilms.
Colaborating with Italians was not the same thing as colaboration with Germans.
Could you elaborate a bit on this please?

Cheers,
Last edited by G. Trifkovic on 31 May 2005, 19:42, edited 1 time in total.

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#5

Post by Ivan Ž. » 31 May 2005, 13:32

I can post some more info later, because i have to go to work now (this very moment).

When i wrote "organisations", that was my substitute phrase for ours "banda" phrase,
i couldn't think of any engl. translation at the moment.

By the way, my point wasn't to prove that chetniks were "angels" or anything,
i'm just alergic to so many must-call-them-lies about them and many units,
which were mostly started by Yugoslav communists, that ruined so many lives then - and later (199...)

Cheers

PS i agree that this is very, very sensitive topic... :wink:

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#6

Post by G. Trifkovic » 31 May 2005, 13:54

When i wrote "organisations", that was my substitute phrase for ours "banda" phrase,
i couldn't think of any engl. translation at the moment.
No,you missed my point-I got the word already ,I'm interested in what kind of banda/organisation/another-similar-english-word
was it? Never heard of it,or of any of it's alleged criminal activities...
which were mostly started by Yugoslav communists, that ruined so many lives then
Pobjednici pisu istoriju as they say...but documents about chetnik colaboration/cooperation/parallel-actions with Italians,Germans and even the sworn enemies of Serbs,the ustashis are so abundant they cannot all be called lies and forgeries (even if some really are)...
- and later (199...)
Don't remember seeing the red star anywhere in Bosnia,1992-1995-more like traditional national emblems,very popular in 1941-1945...

Cheers,

Gaius

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#7

Post by George5 » 31 May 2005, 18:46

Ivanwss wrote:I don't know how much do you know about chetniks and confusing war in Yugoslavia,
but they were antifashists.
Some chetnik leaders did cooperate with Germans from time to time (without permition of Mihailovic).
Colaborating with Italians was not the same thing as colaboration with Germans.
There were also chetniks led by Kosta Pecanac which were colaborating with Germans
and fighting against Mihailovic's chetniks.
And that about 100 000 civilians...where did you get that information ??? :roll:

etc, etc...
I posted pictures of Chetniks together with Nazis and you tell me after, that chetniks were antifaschists?

On this picture were Draza Mihajlovic commanders and behind them was one German Nazi.

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Legion of Honor for Draza Mihailovic

Friday 13th May 2005

With delay of 57 years, Chetnik commander Dragoljub Draza Mihailovic will posthumously get the Legion of Honor that USA President Harry Truman decorated Mihailovic with.

American delegation shall bring the decoration to Belgrade soon within celebration of the 60th anniversary of victory over fascism in the World War II.

Although Mihailovic got the decoration for saving 500 USA pilots during the war, for the first time in history, the highest decoration to a stranger was kept secret because American administration ’did not want to insult then communist authority in Yugoslavia’.

SPO vice president Vojislav Mihailovic expects to receive grandfather’s decoration, but he does not exclude the possibility that his aunt, Draza’s daughter Gordana Mihailovic gets it.

’Eleven years ago SPO asked in my name from State department that USA officially award the decoration. SCG Foreign Minister Vuk Draskovic repeated this request last year during talks with then USA Secretary of State Colin Powell’, Vojislav Mihailovic said.

Legion of Honor is the highest USA decoration meant for foreign citizens for exceptional merits. Draza Mihailovic was decorated at the proposal of USA General Dwight Eisenhower.
The nazis general Lehr said in 1944 he had under his command about 10.000 chetniks.

NAZIS GENERAL LEHR DECLARED HE HAD 10.000 TCHETNIKS (.PDF)
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This is even new for me. Draza Mihailovic cooperated with Ustasha.

Chetniks commander Draza Mihailovic meeting Ustasha

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#8

Post by George5 » 31 May 2005, 18:56

STENOGRAPHIC RECORD AND DOCUMENTS FROM THE TRIAL OF DRAGOLJUB-DRAZA MIHAILOVIC

Published by the Union of the Journalists Associations of the Federative People’s Republic of Yugoslavia
On June 10, 1946, before the Military Council of the Supreme Court of the Federative People’s Republic of Yugoslavia began the trial of 24 traitors and war criminals, including the leading criminal,Dragoljub-Draza Mihailovic.

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The trial took place in the Summer Hall of the Infantry Training School at Topcider, and lasted till July 15, when sentence was passed. It was attended every day by hundreds of men and women from Belgrade and other parts of the country. A total of about 30000 persons attended this trial. The accused were tried before the Military Council of the Supreme Court of the Federative People’s Republic of Yugoslavia, Composed of the President, Colonel Mihailo Djordevic and the members of the Council, Lieutenant-Colonel Milija Lakovic and Lieutenant Mihailo Jankovic, the secretary was Lieutenant Todor Popadic and the assistant judges, Major Nikola Stankovic and Major Radomir Ilic. The prosecution was represented by the Deputy Military Prosecutor of the Yugoslav Army, Colonel Milos Minic, with his assistant Captain Milos Jovanovic.

The accused were Dragoljub-Draza Mihailovic, Dr. Stevan Moljevic Dr. Mladen Zujovic, Dr. Zivko Topalovic, Djuro Vilovic, Radoslav-Rade Radic, Slavoljub Vranjesevic, Milos Glisic, Slobodan Jovanovic, Bozidar Puric, Dr. Momcilo Nincic, Petar Zivkovic, Radoje Knezevic, Dr. Milan Gavrilovic, Zivan Knezevic, Konstantin Fotic, Dragomir-Dragi Jovanovic, Tanasije-Tasa Dinic, Velibor Jonic, Djura Dokic, Kosta Musicki, Bosko Pavlovic, Dr. Lazar-Laza Markovic and Dr. Kosta Kumanudi.

The following were tried in their absence: Slobodan Jovanovic and Bozidar Puric, premiers of the emigrant government, Petar Zivkovic, Dr. Momcilo Nincic and Dr. Milan Gavrilovic, ministers of the emigrant government, Radoje Knezevic, minister of the court in emigration, Konstantin Fotic ambassador of the emigrant government to the USA, Major Zivan Knezevic, director of the military chancellery of the presidium of the emigrant government, Dr. Zivko Topalovic and Dr. Mladen Zujovic, political leaders of the Ravna Gora Cetnik organization, who had fled abroad.


All the accused were represented by counsel, as follows:

Dragoljub-Draza Mihailovic, by the barristers Nikola Djonovic and Dragic Joksimovic;
Djuro Vilovic, by Dr. Milan Omcikus, barrister;
Dragoljub-Dragi Jovanovic, by Slavko Dukanac, barrister;
Tanasije Dinic, by Dr. Bogoljub Jovanovic, barrister;
Velibor Jonic, by Milan Zivadinovic, barrister;
Djuro Dokic, by Dragoljub Joksimiovic, barrister;
Dr. Lazar Markovic, by Aleksandar NikoJic, barrister;
Dr. Kosta Kumanudi, by Dr. Friedrich Pops, barrister, all of which were chosen by the accused themselves.

The other accused were defended by counsel chosen by the Court: Radoslav Radic, by Lazar Vucetic, barrister; Slavoljub Vranjesevic and Milos Glisic, by Blazo Radovic, barrister; Kosta Musicki, by Djordje Ciric, barrister; Bosko Pavlovic, Radoje Knezevic, and Dr. Milan Gavrilovic by Slobodan Subotic, barrister; Dr. Mladen Zujovic and Dr. Zivko Topalovic, by Nikola Radovanovic, barrister, Slobodan Jovanovic, by Milos Terzic, barrister; Bozidar Puric and Petar Zivkovic, by Pavle Miljakovic, barrister; Dr Momcilo Nincic, by David Alkalaj, barrister, and Zivan Knezevic and Konstantin Fotic, by Dragutin Tasic, barrister.

The trial of the traitors and war criminals in Tolpcider was attended by more then 100 journalists of whom about 60 were from abroad, representatives of all big world papers and agencies. Special correspondents were sent by the agencies TASS, CTK, P AP , Reuter, Associated Press, Agence France Presse, United Press, Overseas News Agency, International News Service, the Jewish News Agency, Tele Press, the Albanian Telegraph Agency and ,the newspapers: Pravda Izvestia, London Times, Daily Worker, New York Times, New York Herald Tribune, News Chronicle, Daily Express and others. In order to facilitate speedy communication for the foreign journalists, who had come from the USSR, Bulgaria, Poland, Czechoslovakia, the United States of America, Great Britain, France, China, Hungary, Roumania, Denmark and other countries, a special office for telegraph and telephone service was established at Topcider .

The entire proceedings of the trial were translated into Russian, French and English, so that the foreign correspondents were enabled to follow directly every word of the Court and the accused. In this way the correspondents were able to send to their agencies and editors their reports’ on statements and facts, which had been heard in Court a few minutes previously. Special correspondents of the papers of all the People’s Republics of Yugoslavia were also present. The Belgrade Radio Station transmitted the whole course of the proceedings, so that the entire country and the world public could listen to every word pronounced at this stupendous trial. Many hundreds of thousands of persons throughout Yugoslavia listened with the greatest attention to the transmission of the Topcider trial, in workshops, institutions, houses and squares, in all towns and villages.

Now I will post original text on Serbian language from trial of the Dragoljub Draza Mihailovic in Belgrade where we are able to sea for how many killed inocent people Draza Mihailovic was responsible.
KRIVI SU:

Sto su u toku natcovjecanske borbe koju su narodi Jugoslavije od 1941. do l945. godine u odbrani svoje slobode i nezavisnosti i za svoj opstanak vodili protiv hitlerovske Nemacke, fasisticke Italije i njihovih satelita, stupili i za sve vreme rata i neprijateljske okupacije odrzavali politicku i vojnu saradnju sa okupatorom radi zajednickog ugusivanja opstenarodnog ustanka i podrzavanja okupacije, kako bi uz pomoc okupatora uspostavili rezim protivnarodne diktature i nacionalnog ugnjetavanja te su na taj nacin u najsudbonosnijem razdoblju istorije naroda Jugoslavije izvrsili zlocin izdaje naroda i otadzbine;

Optuzeni MIHAILOVIC DRAGOLJUB – DRAZA:

OPTUZENI MIHAILOVIC DRAGOLJUB – DRAZA i njegovi cetnicki komandanti po njegovim naredjenjima i direktivama izvrsili su masovnim zahvatima u tzv. ciscenjima terena, zatim putem letecih brigada i crnih trojki u toku citavog rata i okupacije bezbrojne ratne zlocine nad narodom u svim krajevima Jugoslavije. Tako su u novembru 1941. godine cetnici streljali u selu Brajicima, u mestu zvanim Drenov Vuk, oko 500 zarobljenih partizana i njihovih porodica.

Optuzeni Mihailovic je u noci izmedju 13. i 14. novembra 1941. godine, tj. iste noci kada se sastao sa gestapovcem, kapetanom Matlom, naredio svom komandantu Daki Tesmanovicu da oko 365 zarobljenih partizana preda srpskoj drzavnoj strazi u Selu Slovac, iako je morao znati da ce ih srpska drzavna straza postreljati ili predati Nemcima, to je i ucinjeno tako da ih je Tesamanovic predao Jovanu Skavi, a ovaj Nemcima. Nemci su od ovih predatih partizana streljali oko 270, a ostale oterali u logore.

Pocetkom novembra 1941. godine, Mihailovicev komandant Ajdacic zaklao je 13 partizanskih simpatizera u blizini Kosjerica na mjestu zvanom Ridovi, medju kojima i uciteljicu Jelenu Subic-Gmizovic i Milevu Kosovac, koje su cetnici, pre nego sto su ih zaklali, silovali i unakazili usijanim gvozdjem.

4. novembra 1941. godine cetnici su ubili blizu Ravne gore oko 30 partizana, koje su bili na prevaru zarobili, medju kojima je bilo 18 devojaka, koje su bile upucene u Uzice za bolnicarke.

U decembru 1941. godine u pozeskom srezu mesoviti nemacko-cetnicki sud u jedan mah osudio je na smrt 12 pristalica partizana.

U decembru mesecu 1941. i tokom januara 1942. godine, cetnici su poklali preko 2000 muslimana - ljudi, zena i dece iz okoline Foce, Gorazda i Cajnica. Klanja su vrsili na mostovima na Drini u Foci i Gorzadu.

U toku decembra 1942. godine i tokom cele 1942. godine, Mihilovicevi "legalizovani" cetnici pohapsili su i predali Nemcima u raznim krajevima Srbije hiljade pristalica partizana, koje su Nemci streljali u logorima na Banjici, Nisu, Uzicu, Cacku i drugim mestima, a pored toga sami cetnici su poubijali hiljade pristalica partizana, opljackali mnoga sela, batinali hiljade ljudi, a veliki broj zena i devojaka iz partizanskih porodica silovali.

Prvog aprila 1942. godine, cetnici Rada Radica pobili su u Josavki 20 ranjenih partizana, medju njima i tesko ranjenog narodnog heroja dr. Mladena Stojanovica.

Aprila meseca 1942. godine cetnici Lazara Tesakovica i Rada Radica (koji su se tada bili stavili pod komandu Mihailovicevog kapetana Racica) ubili su 70 partizana.

Krajem aprila 1942. godine, Spasoje Dakic, komandant Mihailovicevih bataljona u Celebicu, ubio je engleskog majora Terensa Atertona, njegovog radiotelegrafistu i jednog engleskog narednika.

Juna 1942. godine cetnici su u okolini Gacka u selu Izgorima zapalili bolnicu sa 10 teskih partizanskih ranjenika.

Juna 1942. godine, Mihailovicev odred pod komandom kapetana Vladimira Djukica izveo je iz zatvora u Niksicu 25 pristalica narodnooslobodilackog pokreta i zajedno sa Italijanima su ih streljali.

Avgusta meseca 1942. godine, Mihailovicev komandant Bacovic ubio je simpatizere narodnooslobodilackog pokreta Rada Pravicu, Toma Galena, Jovu Ljubibratica, Budimira Hiropina i Tasu Kosorica.

Avgusta meseca 1942. godine Mihailovicevi cetnici pod komandom Petra Bacovica, prilikom zauzeca Foce, zaklali su u Foci i u selima koja se skupa nazivaju Bukovica oko 1000 lica muslimanske veroispovesti, medju kojima je bilo oko 300 zena, dece i staraca.

Avgusta meseca 1942. godine, na terenu oko Ustikoline i Jahorine (istocna Bosna), Mihailovicevi cetnici pod komandom majora Zaharija Ostojica i Petra Bacovica, zaklali su oko 2500 lica muslimanske veroispovesti, a sela popalili.

Septembra meseca 1942. godine cetnici Petra Bacovica ubili su u Makarskoj 900 Hrvata, nekoliko katolickih svecenika odrali i 17 sela zapalili.

Oktobra 1942. godine cetnici Petra Bacovica ubili su u okolini Prozora zajedno sa Italijanima, kojima je komandovao italijanski porucnik Vidjak, oko 2500 muslimana i Hrvata, medju kojima je bilo zena, dece i staraca, a veliki broj sela popalili.

U oktobru 1942. godine, cetnici Petra Bacovica ubili su u selima Gatu, Nikolice i Cislu u Dalmaciji, zajedno sa Italijanima, 109 Hrvata simpatizera narodnooslobodilackog pokreta.

U jesen 1942. godine u Dreznici (Hercegovina) cetnici iz okoline Gacka pri pohodu na Prozor zaklali su oko 100 lica muslimanske veroispovesti.


Januara 1943. godine zaklao je major Cvetic 16 zarobljenih partizana u okolini Uzica;

Janura 1943. godine, pod komandom Komarcevica, Mihailovicevi cetnici su zaklali 72 partizana u srezu posavskom.

Januara meseca 1943. godine, cetnici Pavla Djurisica ubili su u srezu bjelopoljskom oko 400 muskaraca i oko 1000 zena i dece muslimanske veroispovesti.

U februaru mesecu 1943. godine, cetnici pod komandom Zaharija Ostojica, Petra Bacovica, Pavla Djurisica, Voje Lukacevica, Vuka Kalatovica i drugih, u srezovima pljevljanskom, cajnickom i focanskom, zaklali su 1200 muskaraca i 8000 staraca, zena i dece, opljackali i potom spalili 2000 domova.

Polovinom jula 1943. godine u selu Cikoti (Istocna Bosna) cetnici su otkrili 80 ranjenika Prve proleterske divizije, oduzeli im oruzje i sutra dan doveli Nemce koji su ih poubijali, a sutra dan i spalili.

Polovinom juna 1943. godine, u toku Pete neprijateljske ofanzive, cetnici su klali partizanske ranjenike sa Sutjeske, pa su tada zaklali u selu Jelecu i Vrbnici dr. Simu Milosevica i hrvatskog pesnika Ivana Gorana Kovacica.

Jula 1943. godine u Visini (Birac) cetnici su otkrili ranjenike Prve i Druge proleterske brigade i izdali ih Nemcima koji su ih poubijali.

Decembra 1943. godine, cetnicki komandant major Petricevic streljao je u Kolasinu 28 zarobljenih partizana i sest seljaka pristalica partizana.

Decembra meseca 1943. godine cetnicki komandant Zivan Lazovic zaklao je u selu Selevcu 15 seljaka pristalica partizana.

Decembra 1943. godine zaklali su cetnici u okolini Bosanskog Grahova 137 zarobljenih partizana.

Decembra 1943. godine zaklali su cetnici u selu Ticevu kod Drvara 28 zarobljenih partizana.



U drugom dijelu presude govori se o zlocinima koje je pocinio Stevan Moljevic, osudjen na kaznu od 20 godina lisenja slobode sa prinudnim radom.

Sve pocinjene zlocine cetnici su izvrsili na temelju naredbi Draze Mihailovica i njegovih komandanata u toku Drugog svjetskog rata.

Evo jedne, koja je izdata 20. decembra 1941. god, a koju je Vladimir Dedijer objavio u Politici 10. novembra 1981. godine iz drzavnog arhiva SFRJ:

Drazino naredjenje o nacinu stvaranju Velike Jugoslavije i u njoj velike Srbije

Ciljevi nasih odreda jesu:

1. Borba za slobodu celokupnog naseg naroda pod skriptom NJ. V. Petra 2. Stvoriti Veliku Jugoslaviju i u njoj Veliku Srbiju, etnicki cistu, u granicama Srbije, Crne Gore, Bosne i Hercegovine, Srema i Backe

3. Borba za ukljucivanje u nas drzavni zivot i svih neoslobodjenih slovenackih teritorija pod Italijanima i Nemcima (Trst, Gorica, Istra i Koruska), kao Bugarske i severne Albanije sa Skadrom

4. Ciscenje drzavne teritorije od svih nacionalnih manjina i nenacionalnih elemenata

5. Stvoriti neposredne zajednicke granice izmedju Srbije i Crne Gore, kao izmedju Srbije i Slovenije, ciscenjem Sandzaka od muslimanskog i Bosne i Hercegovine od muslimanskog i hrvatskog zivlja

6. Kazniti sve ustase i muslimane koji su u tragicnim danima nemilosrdno unistavali nas narod

7. Kazniti sve one koji su krivi za nasu aprilsku katastrofu

8. U krajevima ociscenim od narodnih manjina i nenacionalnih elemenata, izvrsiti naseljavanje Crnogoraca (u obzir dolaze siromasne nacionalno ispravne porodice)

9. Osiguranje jednog takvog politickog tela koje ce voditi drzavni brod smerom opstih narodnih teznji i interesa

10. Ciljevi su ogromni, zato je borba toliko zahvalnija za one koji se bore za njeno ostvarivanje

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#9

Post by Ivan Ž. » 31 May 2005, 19:14

rommel_gaj wrote:...but documents about chetnik colaboration/cooperation/parallel-actions with Italians,Germans and even the sworn enemies of Serbs,the ustashis are so abundant they cannot all be called lies and forgeries...

...Don't remember seeing the red star anywhere in Bosnia,1992-1995...
Of course they are not all forgeries.
It's just that i don't want them remembered just as a
group of maniacs and colaborationists
as communists want to.

War(-s) in 199... is another horrible story, but it has so many connections with WWII...

I first heard about Avram Levi in a book about communist crimes.
This is a repint of Nedic's Serbia's book, published in those days...
Then i found another text about him and his trial
in a magazine in one Serbian orthodox monastery.
Unfortunately i don't have that magazine, i'll have to go to monastery again to get it.
I have the book on the other hand, but i'm not at home right now...
(and my memory is not very reliable :wink: )

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#10

Post by Ivan Ž. » 31 May 2005, 19:22

George5:
I still stand by claim that they were antifashist movement.
WWII in Yugoslavia was not that simple that you can say
chetniks (for example) were friends with Germans
just because there are photos of them with Germans.
There are much more similar photos of chetniks with Germans than those you've posted.
I've seen whole bunch of them. Still, they were German enemies.
Don't forget Pecanac's chetniks which were truly fighting along with Germans.
(you can find some small details about chetnik "friendship" with 7.SS, for examp. on thread "Prinz Eugen photos")

By the way, Mihailovic is not with ustashas on that photo, those are muslims.
Caption is just one of many communists lies.
...and what would McDowell do with ustashas...?

I'm very familiar with Mihailovic's trial as well.

etc...
Last edited by Ivan Ž. on 31 May 2005, 19:54, edited 1 time in total.

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G. Trifkovic
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#11

Post by G. Trifkovic » 31 May 2005, 19:39

Of course they are not all forgeries.
It's just that i don't want them remembered just as a
group of maniacs and colaborationists
as communists want to.
Well,seeing all the evidence,listening to all the stories and memories (cannot replace hard evidence,of course,but they are in such abundance, there must be some truth in them)-it's hard to imagine them otherwise (in Bosnia and Croatia,at least).

One thing has been evading me ever since I started my "research" on the matter: were there any large-scale German offensives against chetniks in Serbia (pretty sure there were none in Bosnia and Croatia)? I found some alleged cover-names but no other info whatsoever. Any clue about that?
I first heard about Avram Levi in a book about communist crimes.
This is a repint of Nedic's Serbia's book, published in those days...
Printed in Nedic's Serbia? I'd be much more careful about forming my opinions on "Jewish/partisan terrorists" by reading only such a source if I were you - Nedic's policy on Jews is well-known and documented...

Cheers,

Gaius

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#12

Post by Ivan Ž. » 31 May 2005, 19:49

...were there any large-scale German offensives against chetniks in Serbia...

Yes, there were couple of offensives.
But, as i wrote, i'm not home right now (damn).
I don't want to write anything just from my memory.

Printed in Nedic's Serbia? I'd be much more careful about forming my opinions on "Jewish/partisan terrorists" by reading only such a source if I were you - Nedic's policy on Jews is well-known and documented...

Well i wrote that was the first time i heard about that man (in that book).
Of course i'm carefull, i'm not making my opinion about anything easely... :wink:

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#13

Post by G. Trifkovic » 31 May 2005, 19:55

You sounded very resolute to me when you wrote this:
On the other hand, Jews did start many partisan organisations which comited war-crimes.
Well known is the example of Dr Avram Levi.
But than again
Well i wrote that was the first time i heard about that man (in that book).
maybe I got it wrong.

Can't wait for you to get home. :)

Cheers,

GAius

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#14

Post by Ivan Ž. » 31 May 2005, 20:04

Well, i'm not sure what are you writing about now either... :lol:
My point was that Dr Levi was not some Nedic's propaganda
and that i saw much larger text about him in post-war magazine too...OK?

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#15

Post by G. Trifkovic » 31 May 2005, 20:40

Ivanwss wrote:My point was that Dr Levi was not some Nedic's propaganda
and that i saw much larger text about him in post-war magazine too...OK?
Well,you should have written so in the beginning,so to avoid confusion...

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