Serbian Chetniks in cooperation with axis during WW2

Discussions on the foreigners (volunteers as well as conscripts) fighting in the German Wehrmacht, those collaborating with the Axis and other period Far Right organizations. Hosted by George Lepre.
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TISO
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#151

Post by TISO » 28 Jun 2005, 18:09

Regarding Djilas’ records of Draza activities. A Russian journalist B. Sluzkiy was accredited to Tolbukhin army. He was in Yugoslavia and recorded his experience. So he said that cetniks continued military operations against Germans and cooperated with Russian command on the operational level despite the fact the partisan command disliked it very much. Sluzky reported on an accident when partisans killed cetniks who brought a group of 60 German prisoners to Russians.



Very reliable source of information on Chetniks in Serbia in late 1944,no doubt. Let's forget Yugoslav sources...
I would reccomend a book:
Od Ljubljane do Ravne gore - i can't remember the autor right now, but he was former Slovene officer in Royal Yugoslav Army and served with Chetniks in Serbia. He stated that his unit fought for liberation of Belgrade and that red army thanked them and told them that they better dissapear befor partisans find them.

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G. Trifkovic
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#152

Post by G. Trifkovic » 28 Jun 2005, 18:12

Chetnik unit in battle for Belgrade? Could you post more details,Mr. Tiso?

Cheers,


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Ivan Ž.
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ANOTHER CHETNIK VETERAN DECORATED BY ALLIES

#153

Post by Ivan Ž. » 28 Jun 2005, 19:02

I've just found out that another četnik veteran has been decorated.
(New Orleans, 2005)
His name is Miodrag D.Pešić .
He participated in rescuing of Allied pilots
and also wrote a book about it - "Mission Halyard"
(cover of this book shows gen.D.Mihailović with US pilots).

(info & pics: "Pogledi", VI 2005.)

1st photo (from left to right):
- General Duncan J. McNabb (Chief of Staff for Plans and Programs Headquarters U.S. Air Force, Pentagon)
- McNabb's wife
- Miodrag D.Pešić
2nd photo:
- Francis J. Lashinsky
- Miodrag D.Pešić
- Larry Grauberholy
3rd photo:
- Lt.Col. Alen
- Miodrag D.Pešić
- Lt.col. Sanchez

Cheers,
Ivan
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Last edited by Ivan Ž. on 28 Jun 2005, 19:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Ivan Ž.
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#154

Post by Ivan Ž. » 28 Jun 2005, 19:22

Here are two interesting photos:
First one shows General Dragoljub Mihailović with Captain Nick Lalić (left) and
Lieutenant Colonel McDowell (right) on 6.IX 1944. in village Pranjani,
before cellebration of birthday of King Peter II.

Second photo shows same persons examining captured German canon.

(sources: 1st - "Album srpskih četnika gen.D.Mihailovića I"; 2nd - "Pogledi", June 2005)

Cheers,
Ivan
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Marcus
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#155

Post by Marcus » 28 Jun 2005, 19:23

And of course the sources of all these images...

/Marcus

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G. Trifkovic
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#156

Post by G. Trifkovic » 28 Jun 2005, 19:33

Komsija,

since you've reactivated yourself on the thread, some info on german offensives against the chetniks would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Gaius

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#157

Post by Ivan Ž. » 28 Jun 2005, 19:38

:lol:
I expected that.
I have an exuse,
but it's so silly that i'm not going to write it.
But i will post some info some other day.
(if i don't get angry again, like last time...)

Cheers,
Ivan

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#158

Post by Ivan Ž. » 28 Jun 2005, 19:50

Btw, here's something to think about:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... c&start=15
This link leads us to 3 interesting photos (bottom of the page):
First one shows one "Prinz Eugen" SS-Schütze who was killed by četniks in 1944.
Second shows četnik with "Prinz Eugen" men - as a friend.
And the last one - četnik in uniform of SS man who was killed by this četnik's men
(source of this info is my friend who is this četnik's close relative).

Strange relationship...

Cheers,
Ivan

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#159

Post by Karman » 29 Jun 2005, 10:04

rommel_gaj wrote:

Very reliable source of information on Chetniks in Serbia in late 1944,no doubt. Let's forget Yugoslav sources...
Sluzky reported on an accident when partisans killed cetniks who brought a group of 60 German prisoners to Russians.
What should a reader think reading these lines? That the chetniks were pro-Soviet (being fervent anti-communists) and that the Partisans attacked them when they were helping their allies? Any other information on the chetnik contribution to the liberation of Serbia in 1944?

Gaius
I did not get your irony on Sluzkiy's memoirs as a source. He also wrote that Russian commanders reasonably assumed that any assistance from any source could be in hand. Besides they did not receive any recommendations from the central command how to treat chetniks and thus acted on their own.

As for the basis of cooperation between Soviets and chetniks. Djilas concluded that Stalin did not like any communist movements unless they were coordinated and controlled from Moscow. Djilas also wrote (Conversations with Stalin) that in Balkans Stalin was basing his politics on the pan-Slavic union but not on unified struggle of communists (provided that Yugoslavian communists were supported by Brits). Philip Knightly wrote in the book I referred above that Churchill called Canadian communists to assist him in gatherning of anti-fascist communist forces. So Stalin did not rely very much on any communist movements. And Stalin even in 1945 tried to pursuade Tito's partisans to cooperate with both Draze and King Peter.

As for chetniks activities in 1944. I think you very much rely on the claims that 1. chetnik movement lapsed by that time and that chetniks cooperated with Germans. As I can understand the alignment in that time it is a full time job to elicit the truth about the events happenned in Yugoslavia. We can assume that Yugoslavian communist sources were biased. As for the sources from the Alliens we should remember that the guerilla activities in Yugoslavia were supervised by British office of Department of Special Operations basing in Cairo. Andrew&Gordievskiy wrote that the senior expert in that office (Klugman) was a devoted and renowned communist, Philip Knightly recited that one of his contacts (liason officer in Mikhailovic' headquarters) reported to him that the office was a spawn of Soviet resident agents, and Sudoplatov in his Special Missions wrote that NKVD - ìû íàëàäèëè äåëîâîé êîíòàêò ñ ñîòðóäíèêàìè àíãëèéñêîé ðàçâåäêè, äåéñòâîâàâøèìè ïðè øòàáå ìàðøàëà Òèòî â Þãîñëàâèè - "established business relations with British intelligence officers acting in Marshal Tito's staff in Yugoslavia" (those who reported to McLean about the alignment of forces in the country).

What do you think it it practical to assume taking into consideration all the above that the information sent to British command and then released to public about the scope of Mikhailovic' anti-German sabotage activities was corrupt by intermediaries?

I think it is practical. So what do we have then. We know that German command established equal award for the heads of Tito and Mikhailovic. Thus they evaluated their activities being equally harmful for Germans. We have the memoirs of independent observers (the Slovenie officer quoted by TISO and Sluzkiy's notes).

As for the numbers of forces of Tito and Mikhailovic. Numbers mean nothing. We all know that Tito drafted Serbian refugees from Croatia. Those were not only potential fighters but members of their families as well. So the operational forces should have been remarkably smaller than the reported staff numbers .

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#160

Post by George5 » 29 Jun 2005, 12:38

Ivanwss wrote:Btw, here's something to think about:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... c&start=15
This link leads us to 3 interesting photos (bottom of the page):
First one shows one "Prinz Eugen" SS-Schütze who was killed by četniks in 1944.
Second shows četnik with "Prinz Eugen" men - as a friend.
And the last one - četnik in uniform of SS man who was killed by this četnik's men
(source of this info is my friend who is this četnik's close relative).

Strange relationship...

Cheers,
Ivan
How we know and more important how you know that one "Prinz Eugen" SS-Schütze was killed by cetniks? It is speculation becuase photo doesn't show that and we cannot belive your friend?

But this photo is good to show us more about Axis - Chetniks friendship and cooperation during WW2.
Image
Ivanwss wrote: Second photo shows same persons examining captured German canon.
Cheers,
Ivan
How you know it was captured German canon? How we see from photos on this thread Germans and Chetniks were friends so why they will captured German canon, when they were able to recive from Germans canon for free, like from allies until they found out that Chetniks were on German side. You spamed this thread with Serbian propaganda without any facts about that, of course if we forget what your friend said.

Without doubt that Chetniks saved few US pilots, but that was becuase theirs commander was in London and Washington during WW2 and becuase allies helped chetniks in 1941,1942 and 1943 until they were found out that chetniks cooperated with Germans. Because of weapons he recived from allies Mihailovic saved few US pilots but that doesn't make him allies friend becuase he was fully cooperated with every single Axis army on former Yugoslavia area and after all that his troops were made genocide in East Bosnia and South Croatia against Bosnians and Croats.

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#161

Post by Ivan Ž. » 29 Jun 2005, 14:41

:lol:
George5, believe whatever you want.

/Ivan

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#162

Post by Ivan Ž. » 29 Jun 2005, 15:09

OK, i'm serious now (i've stopped laughing).

How we know and more important how you know that one "Prinz Eugen" SS-Schütze was killed by cetniks? It is speculation becuase photo doesn't show that and we cannot belive your friend?

Well, you can choose to trust a friend (or the publisher of dead man's photo) - or not.
I don't know about you, George5, but i trust my friends.
...and i don't think it was common that one SS man
would give his uniform to some četnik to take a picture with it...?
Or is there some other option...?

How you know it was captured German canon?

Well, does it make sence that Allies would examine cannon
which Germans gave to četniks?

Without doubt that Chetniks saved few US pilots, but that was becuase theirs commander was in London and Washington during WW2 and becuase allies helped chetniks in 1941,1942 and 1943 until they were found out that chetniks cooperated with Germans. Because of weapons he recived from allies Mihailovic saved few US pilots but that doesn't make him allies friend becuase he was fully cooperated with every single Axis army on former Yugoslavia area and after all that his troops were made genocide in East Bosnia and South Croatia against Bosnians and Croats.

You have photos in this thread of četniks with Allies in 1944, as well.
Why do you think Allies still (today) decorate četniks - "German friends"...?
(no comment on Draža and "full cooperation with every single Axis army" :roll: )

But, as i wrote, believe whatever you want...

/Ivan

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#163

Post by Allen Milcic » 29 Jun 2005, 20:11

Cetniks with German and Domobran soldiers...

Source: David Lehman
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#164

Post by G. Trifkovic » 29 Jun 2005, 22:47

I did not get your irony on Sluzkiy's memoirs as a source.
My irony is well placed since you put Mr.Sluzkiy's memoirs as the main source of the info on which the reader should form his opinion. Like all memoirs they suffer from the fact they're based on the memory and highly subjective. I don't remember seeing this Mr.Sluzkiy's book anywhere on the list of the serious works on the topic, like Schmieder's, Djilas', Roberts' etc.
Djilas also wrote (Conversations with Stalin) that in Balkans Stalin was basing his politics on the pan-Slavic union but not on unified struggle of communists (provided that Yugoslavian communists were supported by Brits).
As for the sources from the Alliens we should remember that the guerilla activities in Yugoslavia were supervised by British office of Department of Special Operations basing in Cairo. Andrew&Gordievskiy wrote that the senior expert in that office (Klugman) was a devoted and renowned communist, Philip Knightly recited that one of his contacts (liason officer in Mikhailovic' headquarters) reported to him that the office was a spawn of Soviet resident agents, and Sudoplatov in his Special Missions wrote that NKVD - ìû íàëàäèëè äåëîâîé êîíòàêò ñ ñîòðóäíèêàìè àíãëèéñêîé ðàçâåäêè, äåéñòâîâàâøèìè ïðè øòàáå ìàðøàëà Òèòî â Þãîñëàâèè - "established business relations with British intelligence officers acting in Marshal Tito's staff in Yugoslavia" (those who reported to McLean about the alignment of forces in the country).
Now,let's get something clear: favourite argument of the chetnik apologists is that the NKVD mole in Cairo was the sole reason why Churchill changed his horse on the Balkans. First,if it's true,would the NKVD agent dare to work on his own,since it's clear Stalin didn't prefer KPY as the sole reistance movement? Why would than an agent plant pro-communist forgeries therby going directly against Stalin's policy? Any evidence these moles worked on their own?
What do you think it it practical to assume taking into consideration all the above that the information sent to British command and then released to public about the scope of Mikhailovic' anti-German sabotage activities was corrupt by i
intermediaries?
You forget (or "forget" to write) that two British officers who enjoyed particular Churchill's trust went to see for themselves if the reports were true and to report back (not to mention Churchill's son). How do you explain their attitude towards the chetniks? Were they somehow brainwashed? And there was no intermediaries between them and chetniks or intercepted and captured chetnik dispatches (see Vlatko Velebit).
So what do we have then. We know that German command established equal award for the heads of Tito and Mikhailovic. Thus they evaluated their activities being equally harmful for Germans.
It means they evaluated Tito's activity and Draza's presence. First they hunted because he was fighting them,the other because there was a posibility he might,sometime,maybe fight them (in case of Allied landing).
We have the memoirs of independent observers (the Slovenie officer quoted by TISO and Sluzkiy's notes).
Slovene officer was a member of "Blue Guards",that handful of royalist Slovenes loyal to Mihailovic,so he can never be independent. Again,basing your whole picture just on memoirs could lead to serious distorting of the same. I ask you again: have you ever read Schmieder?
As for the numbers of forces of Tito and Mikhailovic. Numbers mean nothing.


Oh? Numbers mean nothing,eh? Just couple of posts ago you pompously mentioned 150,000 chetniks raised in September 1944. ( utter nonsense,by the way). So,are they important or not?
We all know that Tito drafted Serbian refugees from Croatia. Those were not only potential fighters but members of their families as well
.

Tito drafted Serb refugees you say? It wasn't hard to have thousands of Serbs swelling you ranks,knowing what they went through in puppet Croatia. Members of the familiy? Who are you aiming at precisely? Brothers,fathers,cousins? Or are you aiming at women,who were equal in rights to men in YPLA. So who do you aim at?
So the operational forces should have been remarkably smaller than the reported staff numbers .
What did the staff report? What figures do you have? Even most of the "western" sources claim that Partisan army had several hundred thousand men by 1945. Counter these figures using some serious source,please.

Gaius

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#165

Post by G. Trifkovic » 30 Jun 2005, 02:22

Extracts from Sir Fitzroy Maclean's speech Creggans Inn, Strachur, Scotland, 12 September 1987, from http://www.winstonchurchill.org.
...What on earth, I wondered, could Winston have up his sleeve for me? Summoned to Chequers immediately on my arrival, I got the answer. The Prime Minister, it seems, was beginning to have doubts about the rightness of British policy in Yugoslavia. Hitherto we had been backing the Chetniks of General Mihailovich. Now, from intercepted enemy signals, which I of course knew nothing about, it began to took as if Tito's Partisans might be a better bet. He wanted me to go in as Brigadier, commanding a British military mission to the Partisans, and as his personal representative, to find out, as he put it, "Who was killing" (to put it rather brutally) "the most Germans, and how we could help them to kill more." My mission was to be first and foremost military; political considerations were to be secondary...

...On the strength of my reports a decision had been taken to give all-out support to Tito and the Partisans. I thought it right to remind him that the Partisans were Communist-led. "Do you intend to make your home in Yugoslavia after the war?" he asked. "No," I replied. "Neither do I," he said. "That being so, don't you think we had better leave it to the Yugoslavs to work out their own form of government? What concerns us most now is who is doing the most damage to the Germans." Thinking our conversation over afterwards, I felt convinced, and still feel convinced, that this was the right decision...

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