Serbian Chetniks in cooperation with axis during WW2

[Karman]

So you do have other sources on Schwarz? Commendable. Could you please list them?

No, I do not unless you clarify what is wrong with this one except that it does not suit your version?

It's pointless going on like this,Mr. Millcic will intervene,and rightly so. If you do not want to share the titles of your sources,I can'T do nothing about it. Forum abounds with information on the topic.For starters:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... highlight=

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... highlight=

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... sc&start=0

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=3940

I can post extracts from several german documents,if it would be usefull for other purposes other than bickering.

I docilely browsed through the links you referred to and found no mentions that Operation Schwarz was targeted against partisans but not chetniks. What was the reason you placed the reference to those links?
If you have German docs supporting you position and bearing the date of April - May, 1943 till June 9, 1944 to support your claims I would appreciate it.

[Karman]

Come on. Chetniks used weapons not only against communists but against Germans as well. Partisans cooperated with ustashis and domobrany (Fascist allies) and received weapons from them to use against anti-fascist chetniks and thus helped Hitler. This is all demagogy. Do you mean that Germans fought against communists only? Or they fought against freedom fighters? Actually Germans did not see the difference between Mikhailovic and Tito and equally valuated them both.

Allen, how can I describe this post and that you don't delete mine post with personal atack argument? I cannot say that this is true becuase one single sentence in this post is not true. So what is? Lies, fake history or what?

Regards

So you claim that
1. chetniks did not fight against Germans?
2. Partisnas did not get weapons from ustashis and domobrany?
3. Partisnas did not fight against chetniks but against Germans only?
4. Germans did not announce the same prize for the heads of Mikhailovic and Tito in the middle of 1943?

Or you just chit-chat to express yourself?

[George5]

Come on. Chetniks used weapons not only against communists but against Germans as well. Partisans cooperated with ustashis and domobrany (Fascist allies) and received weapons from them to use against anti-fascist chetniks and thus helped Hitler. This is all demagogy. Do you mean that Germans fought against communists only? Or they fought against freedom fighters? Actually Germans did not see the difference between Mikhailovic and Tito and equally valuated them both.

Allen, how can I describe this post and that you don't delete mine post with personal atack argument? I cannot say that this is true becuase one single sentence in this post is not true. So what is? Lies, fake history or what?

Regards

So you claim that
1. chetniks did not fight against Germans?
2. Partisnas did not get weapons from ustashis and domobrany?
3. Partisnas did not fight against chetniks but against Germans only?
4. Germans did not announce the same prize for the heads of Mikhailovic and Tito in the middle of 1943?

Or you just chit-chat to express yourself?

We are not here to claim something but to post facts. I cannot accept like valid source of information that one Russian writer said this or that becuase we talking here about history and we need better facts than that.
Fact is that Serbian Chetniks of Dragoljub Mihailovic cooperated with Germans during WW2 and we are lucky that we have many of those facts here, on this thread.
Fact is that we have here on this thread dousens of pictures from Mihailovic trial in Belgrade 1948 and fact is that we cannot belive something different than that Chetniks cooperated with Axis and Ustasha regime also. Sources for that all you have here. If you want to close your eyes on pictures or original letters I cannot help you, but that will not change facts about Chetniks cooperation with Axis. How I see from your posts, your main goal here is not to see real arguments of Chetniks cooperation with Axis but with numbers of pointless posts to hide those arguments, so I will decide in future if you have some smart post related to this thread to answer you or not. In future your pointless posts will not be answered by me.

Regards,
Geroge 5

[Karman]

We are not here to claim something but to post facts......and fact is that we cannot belive something different than that Chetniks cooperated with Axis and Ustasha regime also.

Superb. Go on cherrishing your beliefs
Stay well.

[G. Trifkovic]

Mr.Karman,

From http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... highlight= (emphasis are mine):

The long answer - I can say with certainty that for some unknown reason the Germans did not include their casualty figures in any of the after-action reports for "Schwarz". They did for just about every other anti-Partisan operation in the Balkans, but not for "Schwarz". Some 20 - 25 years ago I carefully examined all of the microfilmed German records of Heeresgruppe E, 104. Jäger-Div., 118. Jäger-Div., 369. Inf.Div.(kroat.), 7. SS-Freiw.Geb.Div. "Prinz Eugen", Dt.Bevollmächtigter General in Kroatien, the Dt.Gesandtschaft Agram plus many, many others and made careful notes on all of the anti-partisan operations carried out in the former Yugoslavia and Albania. I also researched all of the hundreds of books and articles published in Belgrade as well as the microfilmed Italian military records for Yugoslavia. The only one I did not examine were the records of the 1. Gebirgsdivision. But the Yugo-Serbo scholars from the Vojnoistorijski institut did examine the records of 1. Geb.Div. as have Western scholars. No one has been able to find any Axis casualty figures for "Schwarz".

The Partisan casualties are well known, of course. Although Tito managed to escape with better than half of his men after several weeks of intense, savage fighting, his losses were nevertheless catastrophic: at least 5,697 Partisans and 2,537 civilian sympathizers killed (another source speaks of 7,356 killed plus a further 1,000 wounded who either died after being abandoned or were captured by the Axis forces and murdered). Axis losses are not known, but they were minimal by comparison.

from http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... highlight= :

I am trying to establish NOVJ losses in Schwarz Op.

Official YU sources say that some 7000 Partisans was killed during the offensive.

I also had a chance to read how the Germans allegedly reported the Partisan body-count of some 12.300.

from http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=3940 :

Following Weiss, the Division next took part in ‘Unternehmen Schwarz’, (Operation Black), taking place between 15th May and 16th June 1943. Schwarz was a plan to destroy the main battle group and central HQ of the Yugoslav Communists, situated in south-east Hercegovina and north-western Montenegro, and led by Josip Broz “Tito”. A large Axis force was mobilised for the operation, and included the 7th Waffen SS Mountain Division "Prinz Eugen", 1st German Mountain Division, which had arrived from the Russian front, the 369th (Croat Legion) Division, the 118th Jaeger Division, the lst Motorized Regiment of the Brandenburg commando formation. The Italians assembled the "Taurinense" Infantry Division, the 23rd Infantry Division "Ferrara", and the 19th Infantry Division "Venezia". Other Axis forces available for this offensive included the Croat 4th Jaeger Brigade and the Bulgarian 61st and 63rd Infantry Regiments.

So,you didn't find any? Strange,I found something, as you see ... And since your intention to provocate and push your own agenda at all costs rather to have a constructive dialogue is now obvious beyond doubt, I'll refrain from taking part in such an exchange in the future.

Gaius

[George5]

Superb. Go on cherrishing your beliefs
Stay well.

It seems you still don't understand or you don't want to understand? Those are not my beliefs, but photo facts. You are able to belive what ever you want, but still photo facts are photo facts and like argument in one discussion if we are able to call this discussion are more powefull than yours, mine or anybody else beliefs.

[Karman]

Mr.Karman,

Gaius

You mean to backup your claims referring to other claims of other members of the society? I referred to some books. You find the topic to be too obvious for you to place any prooves. You mentioned some documents so do it.

I followed every rule of this forum and place references to the books and publications to support every of my claims. You want to challenge them so place documents. Do it.

[G. Trifkovic]

A couple of documents about the begginings of collaboration of Momcilo Djuic's chetniks and Italians in Lika and Dalmatia (Jovan Marjanovic "Draza Mihailovic izmedju Britanaca i Nemaca",1979,p. 206):

Momcilo Djuic,just before the capitulation of Italy,in a letter to Italian commander of Knin writes:

"Since July 1st 1941 I've been fighting shoulder to shoulder with Italian army against the common enemy-communist in the area of Dinara. During all of this time,objective and correct evaluation of my personal attitude and of my military and political activity cannot ascribe me a smallest act of hostility or doubt towards the Italian army or the Italian people.That would be against my sense of honor and my Serbian pride because that would be against my sincere attitude of friendliness and co-operation with the Italian people-attitude I took on the very first day ,which still lasts and which will last in the future..."

Arhiv Vojno-istorijskog instituta (AVII) ,Ca 14/2,160.

R.Dalmazzo,commander of the Italian VI corps in a letter of July 29th 1941 to his divisional commands regarding the rebellious nationalist elements states:

"These elements have made it clear that they are not Italian enemies-they show respect for our officers and they've helped us in establishing communitaions,etc.-and they want our troops in the garrisons."

Zbornik NOR,XIII-1,215

And in a report dated January 17th 1942:

"First contacts with the leaders of the formations of the "Lika uprising" (July-August 1941.)were made in the area of the "Sassari" infantry division...Contacts gradualy covered the whole chetnik organisation in Lika. That enabled us to draw these formations so deep into our sphere of influence and control,that some of them started to fight against the communists some time ago,with visible results..."

General Dalmazo further mentiones chetnik leaders Steva Radjenovic,Dobrosav Jevdjevic and Ilija Trifunovic Bircanin:

"...these persons' cooperation enabled us to expand and enlarge our political and intelligence organisation."

and (emphasis are mine):

"...It was possible,using these people,to establish contact with general Draza Mihailovic,leader of the leftovers of Yugoslav forces and chetnik-nationalist formations which London tried to use against us as guerilla,in which case we would have been forced to use considerable forces and materiel against them..."

Zbornik NOR,XIII-2,51

Gaius

[G. Trifkovic]

A letter of Jevdjevic to Mihailovic,most probably late April or early May 1942 (Mihailovic responded on May 9th); "Draza Mihailovic izmedju Britanaca i Nemaca",1979,p.254:

"Beacuse of the ruthless partisan terror,we were forced to talk and collaborate with the Italian troops,who gladly responded hoping to avoid fightning and exposure of their soldiers,as well as hoping that we alone could liquidate the communists.Italian army has given us so far weapons,250.000 bullets,10 machineguns and food for our squads and the starving population...All these squads well be under the command of our active officers only and will be ready for your orders at any time,against the Italians or anybody else."

AVII,Ca,4/5,18.

Italian general Giacomo Zanussi,deputy head of staff of 2.Italian army writes in his book "Guerra e catastofe d'Italia" (Roma 1945,Vol.I. 248-249.):

"In NDH,about 19 to 20 thousand chetniks were organised in MVAC.They were supplied with 30,000 rifles,500 machine guns,100 mortars,15 various cannon, 250,000 hand granates,7 million rounds,7-8,000 pairs of shoes..."

Quoted from "Draza...",p.299

[Karman]

So you do have other sources on Schwarz? Commendable. Could you please list them?

No, I do not unless you clarify what is wrong with this one except that it does not suit your version?

I can post extracts from several german documents,if it would be usefull for other purposes other than bickering.

I inferred out of the context that you have the documents on Operation Schwarz supporting your claim that it was not designed and planned against chetniks. You have not provided any so far.

[G. Trifkovic]

A pair of documents concerning Montenegrin chetniks' "war operations" other than patroling the countryside for their Italian masters (emphasis are mine):

(1)-Report of Major Pavle Djurisic to "High command" dated January 1th 1943 about the action on the right bank of Lim,in the area of Bijelo polje,Sandzak:
"Following muslim villages were totaly destroyed:(names follow)...All in all 33 villages...Casaulties: muslim fighters-400,women and children-about 1000...Our losses:14 dead,26 wounded..."

(2)-Report of Major Pavle Djurisic to "High command" dated February 13th 1943 about the "actions against the muslims" in Sandzak and eastern Bosnia:
"...Operation was aimed at total anhilation of muslim population regardles of gender and age...Our losses:20 dead (2 of which by accident) and 32 wounded...Muslim casaulties: ca. 1200 fighters and about 8000 others:women,elderly and children..."

Both documents scanned from the book "Cetnici Draze Mihailovica,1941-1945".

[Karman]

Returning back to the Operation Schwarz. I posed the question to a Serbian forum "Pogledi" http://www.pogledi.co.yu/diskusije/viewtopic.php?t=2383 . There I was kindly advised that the Operation Schwarz was initially designed and planned against chetniks and it began on the 11th of May with the attack of 118 German division and 369 German-Croatian division against the chetniks of Nevesinskogo and Kalinskogo corpses in Kalinivka region in the North Herzegovina. The Operation Schwarx was expanded against Tito's partisans in Montenegro on May 17, 1943.

On Operation Schwarz referrence to the book of Ivan Abakumovic "Mikhailovic Prema Nemechkim Documentama"

On the truce negotiations of Tito's representatives with Germans on March, 1943 reference to the book of Mishe Lekovic "Martovski Peregovory" .
Also the book: "General Draja Mikhailovic and Opshta Historia Chetnikog Pokreta" by Miloslav Samardjic (I cordialy thank the author for his kind help and assistance)

As for the March negotiations between Partisans and Chetniks. Tito offered to Germans the assistance in their fight against Britts in the event of British landing in Yugoslavia and also cooperation in the fights against chetniks.

[G. Trifkovic]

Two german documents concerning the meeting between Mihailovic and german representatives headed by Oberstlt. Kogard held in a tavern across the street from the Divci railway station,on November 11th 1941. Mihailovic was primarily interested in getting arms and ammunition to fight the "communists"-Germans demanded surrender...(scanned from "Cetnici Draze Mihailovica,1941-1945") In "Draza Mihailovic izmedju Britanaca i Nemaca",1979, this episode is described on pages 145-167-with extracts from the above-mentioned document,original to be found at: NAW,T-314,Roll 1457,1314-1321 as the footnote suggests.

[Karman]

Two german documents concerning the meeting between Mihailovic and german representatives headed by Oberstlt. Kogard held in a tavern across the street from the Divci railway station,on November 11th 1941. Mihailovic was primarily interested in getting arms and ammunition to fight the "communists"-Germans demanded surrender...(scanned from "Cetnici Draze Mihailovica,1941-1945") In "Draza Mihailovic izmedju Britanaca i Nemaca",1979, this episode is described on pages 145-167-with extracts from the above-mentioned document,original to be found at: NAW,T-314,Roll 1457,1314-1321 as the footnote suggests.

I again in this case presume to refer to the artical of Miloslav Samardjic:

Äðóãî, ãåíåðàë Äðàæà Ìèõàèëîâèž è œåãîâè îôèöèðè ïðåãîâàðàëè ñó âèøå ïóòà ñà Íåìöèìà (Äðàæà äâà ïóòà), àëè òî ñó áèëè ïðåãîâîðè ñà íåïðè¼àòåšåì, êî¼èõ èìà ó ñâàêîì ðàòó. Òè ïðåãîâîðè íèñó áèëè òà¼íà, íàïðîòèâ. Äðàæà ñå 11. íîâåìáðà 1941. ñàñòàî ñà Íåìöèìà ó ñ. Äèâöè êîä Âàšåâà, î ÷åìó ñó ¼óãîñëîâåíñêà èçáåãëè÷êà âëàäà ó Ëîíäîíó è Åíãëåçè áèëè îáàâåøòåíè è ïðå è ïîñëå ñàñòàíêà. Âåñò î ïðåãîâîðèìà ïðåíåî ¼å è ðàäèî "Áè-Áè-Ñè" 12. íîâåìáðà, ñ ïîõâàëàìà Äðàæè çà õðàáðî äðæàœå ïðåä ìîžíèì îêóïàòîðîì.

http://www.pogledi.co.yu/galerija/cetni ... /index.php

That says: that Mikhailovic advised the Yugoslavian government in exile of his negotiations with Germans at Divici. Those talks were authorized by the King and the British allies were informed. The BBC reported of the talks on November 12, 1941 estimating Mikhailovic's position.

[Chetnik1942]

Most of the information out there about the chetniks was written by enemies of the chetniks. I am not denying that there may have been some collaboration of some sort in order to rid Serbia of Tito and communism, but facts are indeed exagerated by many. I live in Australia where many Serbs, many Chetniks, came after WW2. My father was one of these men. Hearing first hand information of what actually happened, to reading information here and there is two different things. You can not believe everything you read. A lot of antichetniks will try and discredit people like General Draza Mihailovic, a true Serbian hero, and make him look like a thug and a war criminal. The truth of the matter is, Serbian Chetniks were allies of USA and UK during WW2. That is why Chetniks march here in Australia for Anzac Day (for those of you who don't know, Anzac day-25th April, is similar to veterans day here in Australia). Do Tito's partisans march? NO. Do ustashi march? NO. Why is that? Chetniks rescued allied airmen and returned them safely, at risk to themselves and to the Serbian people, many of which were executed in large groups by nazis because of actions like that.

Chetniks were guerilla fighters made up of members of the Royal Jugoslav Army and many locals, peasants, who fought to defend their country. Some of these groups did not directly report to Mihailovic and basically did their own thing. Largely as a group, chetniks WERE antifascists, they WERE anticommunists. When they were fighting a civil war, and at the same time fighting the nazis, ustashi and italians. Much of the information that got out of Jugoslavia was from the communists. And they were more then happy to distort the truth in order to discredit them.