pétain

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ziggy wiseman
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pétain

#1

Post by ziggy wiseman » 10 Oct 2002, 16:05

Alsaco,thanks for these info!

But one thing that bugs me is the way the jury had been "choose".
You said it was politicians.
(En passant,je suis d'origine suisse)

alsaco
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#2

Post by alsaco » 11 Oct 2002, 00:23

For this purpose of judging the high political leaders in Vichy, the National Assembly ( Resistance leaders and former party leaders ) meeting in Algiers had decided that a special court should be set up.

In fact french peoples do like special court of justice, and we have often used this practice of "Cour d'exception "

Professionnal magistrate were in charge of proceedins, but the jury was made up with members of the parliament. The members were eleccted, at the beginning of the session, but in fact each party did present the number of candidate corresponding to his proportion in the total number of Members of the Parliament.
I would have to check to be more precise, but this did produce as members of the jury around 25% for the four main groups, communists, socialists, mrp-catholics and gaullists.
Through Google you can certainly find the names, party, year of election of each of the members of the jury. Probably also on the official french internet net , http://www.premier-minister.gouv.fr, or http://www.senat.fr

Hoping to have been of help,


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ziggy wiseman
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Pétain

#3

Post by ziggy wiseman » 11 Oct 2002, 15:22

Thanks,Alsaco

alsaco
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petain procés

#4

Post by alsaco » 11 Oct 2002, 21:00

Two sites to help understand the situation

one in favor of the Maréchal
http://www.marechal-petain.com/proces.htm

the other reprint of day-to-day comments by Leon Werth
http://www.viviane-hamy.fr/lit_fran/lf_0483.html

Good afternoon

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johnny_bi
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#5

Post by johnny_bi » 12 Oct 2002, 10:08

Anyway , which were the charges against Petain ?

BI

alsaco
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Pétain, charges against

#6

Post by alsaco » 14 Oct 2002, 12:06

johnny_bi wrote:Anyway , which were the charges against Petain ?

BI
I have tried to find the "acte d'accusation on the net, but have found only pieces.

In fact the main title would have been treachery, and quite all decisions, laws, speeches of the Vichy period were incriminated, from the demand and acceptation of the armistice to all measures for the "revolution nationale", the collaboration with the Germans, the furniture of goods, and working power, to Germany, the help given to german police, the fight against the "resistance", the creation of the Milice, the autorisation given to participate in the "Legion des volontaires français"

The trial was on Petain, but what was really at stake was to proove that the entire period 1940-1945 from Vichy was entirely illegal;

The trial did begin July 23, 1945, to end August 15, 1945.

A complete report of proceedings was published in the Journal Officiel, which is probably kept by your national Library.
The archives from the High Court of Justice are kept nder code 3W by the Ministry od Justice, CHAN, Section du 20e siècle, Centre historique de Paris.
Two books do present the procés
Collectif, Le procés du Maréchal Pétain, Compte rendu sténographique, Collection Grands Procés Contemporains, direction Maurice Garçon, edited by Albin Michel, Paris, 1945, en deux volumes,
Collectif, Haute Cour de Justice, Procés du maréchal Pétain, compte rendu in extenso des procedures, Impimé par Imprimerie des J. O., Paris, 1945, en 386 pages

There are also other books with Procés Petain in the title, but they are discussion and comments on some points of interest, not complete analyse of all points raised during the trial

Hoping to have been of help.

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johnny_bi
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#7

Post by johnny_bi » 15 Oct 2002, 08:04

And what is the oppinion of historians about Petain ?
Could have anyone else done better ?

BI

alsaco
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Opinions on Petain

#8

Post by alsaco » 17 Oct 2002, 23:49

Up to you to build up your opinion.

There are lots of books on Petain and Vichy time, and there is no consensus among historians on the subject.

Personnally, I consider that no judgment is possible. You can only consider facts as they happened, and remain as neutral as possible while considering the causes and consequences;

But Vichy times are still very disputed in France.

feldmarshal
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In Petain's favour . .

#9

Post by feldmarshal » 03 Dec 2002, 10:42

It was easy for De Gaulle and the provisional government to come back and condemn Petain for collaboration. A true definition of colaboration would have been one where Germany and France were on an equal standing and Petain had voluntarily and willingly joined Hitler in his crusade. The truth was a lot harsher than that. France had just suffered its greatest military defeat and was submitted to following the orders of the Germans. Petain had very little choice than to play along on certain fronts. He was a figure head, who was meant to retire after ww1 and was merely brought back as a sybmbol. His hands were largely tied due to Laval's personal friendship with many powerful Nazi figues, such as Ribbentrop and Goring. Thus Laval, who believed in the Nazi doctrine, very much had a blank cheque.
Many believe that by staying in France, Petain avoided the worst for France as he was able to govern the southern region and it was not subjected to Nazi rule until 1942.

feldmarshal

alsaco
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#10

Post by alsaco » 03 Dec 2002, 16:51

Opinions on the four years Vichy governments are open to discussion.

However, historically, it can not be said that Laval was linked with germans per se. Socialist, elected in the suburb Aubervilliers, near Paris, he was certainly a good professional politician, but his tendancy in external affairs inclined more toward Mussolini then Hitler. In 1940, Bordeaux and Vichy, he played for himself, and defended mostly a pacifist manner to come out of the mess than a pro-german attitude.

Having been arrested by Petain's guard, he was freed on german pressure, and then found help in the parisian political parties, who were really in favour of links with the nazis.

Returned to power, Laval did play the help germany tune in full, and pushed slowly Petain out of the scene. Until Darnand invaded the theatre of actions with what was then called the Militia State, end of 1943.

In 1944, August, Laval did try a return against Petain and Darnand, with a tentative of return to prewar conditions through a government Herriot-Laval restoring the prewar republic, helping americans to avoid De Gaulle, and to fight communism. This Coup failed entirely, but shows that the main objective for Laval was Laval's interest and carrier, and not ideals or any intellectual view of the future.

JLEES
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Petain

#11

Post by JLEES » 03 Dec 2002, 17:45

The Feldmarshal has stated, "A true definition of collaboration would have been one where Germany and France were on an equal standing and Petain had voluntarily and willingly joined Hitler in his crusade." But of course this is not true. To be a traitor there is nothing in writing about "equal standing." You can be the underdog in a situation and betray your country, like B. Arnold did for the American Revolution. Both individuals fought for the underdog side (Petain for France, Arnold for US) and both individuals made deals with the enemy, and both individuals are now considered traitors. He may have been a great hero in WWI, but a traitor in WWII.
James

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