Ukrainians in the Waffen-SS & Wehrmacht

Discussions on the foreigners (volunteers as well as conscripts) fighting in the German Wehrmacht, those collaborating with the Axis and other period Far Right organizations. Hosted by George Lepre.
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Orlov
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Re: Ukrainians in the Waffen-SS & Wehrmacht

Post by Orlov » 01 May 2022 00:11

smetanin albert wrote:
29 Apr 2022 12:39
About Melniczenko
Thank you very much, Albert.
Sid Guttridge wrote:
30 Apr 2022 07:17
I was wondering if there is any continuity between the Sic Guard in then Czecho-Slovak Ruthenia in 1938-39 and the later 14th W-SS Division?
Dear Sid, I think, that more of Ukrainians from Carpathian Ruthenia could have ended up in the Hungarian army due to ordinary conscription - just like the Slovaks from the areas annexed to Hungary in 1939. Of course, a few Ukrainians could sneak across the "green border" to the Galizien District and was conscripted to SS-Freiwilligen-Division Galizien.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Ukrainians in the Waffen-SS & Wehrmacht

Post by Sid Guttridge » 01 May 2022 08:31

Hi Orlov,

Yes, ordinary Ruthenians were conscripted into the Hungarian Army.

However, my question related to nationalist Ukrainians from the Sic Guard, the most radical of whom seem to have come from Polish Galicia. A good number were captured by the Hungarians and/or Poles seem to have been massacred on the border in late March 1939. (The bodies were apparently exhumed on 6 August 2011.) However, others escaped into Poland, and Romania and the surviving leaders seem to have ended up in Vienna. It is these I was wondering about regarding the 14th W-SS Division.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Orlov
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Re: Ukrainians in the Waffen-SS & Wehrmacht

Post by Orlov » 01 May 2022 11:09

Hi Sid,
I understood what you wrote. I suspected that both ordinary Ruthenians (I think about Carpatians highlanders - Lemkos or Boykos) and nationalist Ukrainians from "Carpathian Sich" had joined the Hungarian (or Slovak) army. And as I wrote, some "restless spirits" could cross the Hungarian border with the General Government - first they went to the "Roland" and "Nachtigall" battalions. Or stay in the territory of the General Government under the care of the Ukrainian Committee or First Slovak Republic.
Ukrainian historian Roman Ponomarenko, about whom I wrote above, seems to me to be most familiar with the subject SS-Freiwilligen-Division Galizien (better than Bogusz and Melnyk). I don't think he's at AHF and lives in Kharkiv - I don't know how to contact him - try via Facebook.
Prof. Andrzej Olejko don't wrote about the Polish repressions, i.e. the execution Ukrainian nationalist (but about murder od Czech and Slovak policemen or officials) of the above-mentioned shooting, in his book "Niedoszly sojusznik czy trzeci agresor? Wojskowo-polityczne aspekty trudnego sasiedztwa Polski i Slowacji 1918-1939" [Would-be ally or third aggressor? Military and political aspects of the difficult neighborhood of Poland and Slovakia 1918-1939] (Krakow-Miedzyzdroje: Wingert, 2012). There, a detailed chapter on the subversive operation Łom [Crowbar], conducted by the Second Department of [Polish] General Staff (military intelligence).
Ukrainian historian Олександр Пагіря, «Карпатська Січ: військове формування Карпатської України» (Київ: Видавництво Темпора, 2010) [Oleksandr Pagirya, “Carpathian Sich: Military Formation of Carpathian Ukraine” (Kyiv: Tempora Publishing House, 2010)] described mentioned above and other Hungarian repressions (shooting, fighting the post-Sich guerilla by the Hungarian gendarmerie) in March-May 1939. Most of the soldiers of the Carpathian Sich escaped to the First Slovak Republic. The Ukrainian author did not mention anything about the soldiers of Carpathian Sich, who joined to SS-Freiwilligen-Division Galizien after four years - your only hope is contact with Ponomarenko.
PS: Please look for and watch "Natural Light" (Természetes fény) awarded the Silver Bear for Best Director in 2021. This debut of Dénes Nagy tells about a few days of fighting a Slovak recruit in the Hungarian occupation forces in Belarus.

Ken S.
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Re: Ukrainians in the Waffen-SS & Wehrmacht

Post by Ken S. » 25 Sep 2023 17:29

Big controversy in Canada about this atm. I won't comment more about it because it's "modern day politics" but in case anyone is interested and not aware it's getting ample coverage in Canadian, and some foreign media.

encyclo-collaboration
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Re: Ukrainians in the Waffen-SS & Wehrmacht

Post by encyclo-collaboration » 25 Sep 2023 22:35

Politic is politic... Today mre than ever...
Zelensky was of course aware about the past of this man. And of course said nothing. For OBVIOOUS reasons.
And, oh miracle, Canada parliament , discover the "horrible truth", and condamned it , with FORCE...

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Ukrainians in the Waffen-SS & Wehrmacht

Post by Sid Guttridge » 26 Sep 2023 19:46

Hi encyclo-collaboration,

What evidence is there that, "Zelensky was of course aware about the past of this man."

The stunt was organised by ignorant Canadian politicians. It is a little hard to believe that the 45-year old Jewish Zelensky, who has rarely left Ukraine and is currently running a war of national survival, would be aware of a 98 year-old Ukrainian ex-Waffen-SS man who has been in Canada for over 70 years.

So, I ask again, what evidence is there that, "Zelensky was of course aware about the past of this man."

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Ukrainians in the Waffen-SS & Wehrmacht

Post by InquiringMind » 06 Oct 2023 15:29

N.B. Many people refer to Ukrainians in the Galicia Waffen Ss division as “SS men” or “SS officers. This appears to be historically incorrect

Prof Myroslav Shkandrij writes in his new book In the Maelstrom, about the Galicia Waffen SS, that according to H. Himmler himself, head of the German SS: Ukrainians could not be SS men- “ he disassociates Ukrainians from SS” implying they are subhuman ( see quotes attached). “Should be Ukrainians serving in the combat units of the SS”

The Division was headed / commanded by SS officers, but the rank and file were Ukrainian conscripts, not “ SS men” who trained in Germany and then fought the Bolsheviks, not the Poles or the Jews.
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Orlov
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Re: Ukrainians in the Waffen-SS & Wehrmacht

Post by Orlov » 08 Oct 2023 15:02

Unfortunately, a weak book - written as the apotheosis of the Ukrainian (Galician) national movement.
They were not members of the SS - because they were volunteer divisions made up of foreign volunteers (as indicated by the prefix Waffen- in the later name)
You have to get rid of your sympathies and write in accordance with the classic principle "sine ira et studio".
Of course, it has long time been known that the Galician SS division did not murder the thousands and tens of thousands. They are not responsible for Huta Pieniacka, Brody, Wicyn (Vitsyn),Czernicy, Palikrowy, Malinska, Budki Nieznanowskie in Kamionka Strumilowa, Iasenytsia Polsk in Kamionka Strumilowa, Pawlow in Radziechowsk and Chatki, in the Distrikt Galizien - authors of these massacre were Ukrainians policemen of Galizisches SS Freiwilligen Regiment 4.
Ukrainian soldiers murdered several hundred Poles during the operations of Kampfgruppe Beyersdorff (SS-Obersturmbannführer Friedrich Beyersdorff) in Distrikt Lublin. They also committed war crimes in Slovakia (during SNP) and Slovenia (during Bandenbekämpfung).

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