Prince Bernhard

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Ypenburg
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Prince Bernhard

Post by Ypenburg » 04 Aug 2008 20:08

Adam Carr wrote:Claus's father-in-law, Prince Bernhard, however, was a genuine German prince before his marriage. But he was never a member of the Wehrmacht - just the NSDAP, the SA and the SS Reiter Corps. An interesting background for someone who by the end of the war was commander-in-chief of an Allied army.
I would love to see the prove that our former SS-man ("It was the only way to drive motorcycle as a student") flew combat-missions with the RAF over Germany :wink:

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Adam Carr
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Re: Royalty in the Wehrmacht

Post by Adam Carr » 05 Aug 2008 12:29

From Wikipedia:

In England, Prince Bernhard asked to work in British Intelligence but the War Admiralty, and later General Eisenhower's Allied Command offices, did not trust him sufficiently to allow him access to intelligence information. However, on the recommendation of Bernhard's friend and admirer, King George VI, he was later permitted to work in the war planning councils. In 1940, flight Lieutenant Murray Payne instructed the prince to fly a Spitfire. The Prince made 1,000 flight-hours in a Spitfire with the RAF's 322 "Dutch" squadron wrecking two planes during landings. As "Wing Commander Gibbs," Prince Bernhard flew over occupied Europe in a B-24 bomber attacking V-1 launch pads, he was in a B-25 Mitchell bomber bombing Pisa, over the Atlantic ocean bombing a submarine and in an L-5 reconnaissance plane over occupied Europe. Prince Bernhard was awarded the Dutch Flying Cross for his "ability and perseverance" (Dutch: "bekwaamheid en volharding"). (source: Interview with the Prince,1993, Henny Meyer, published in "Het Vliegerskruis" 1997).

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Re: Royalty in the Wehrmacht

Post by Ypenburg » 05 Aug 2008 23:35

Wikipedia, and based on an interview with Bernhard. :lol:
I'm already familiar with the Royal Familie Propaganda Kompanie. :wink:

But serious, I would love to see the prove that he flew combat-missions with the RAF over Germany.

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Adam Carr
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Re: Royalty in the Wehrmacht

Post by Adam Carr » 06 Aug 2008 00:48

Are you saying it's not true?

Ypenburg
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Re: Prince Bernhard

Post by Ypenburg » 06 Aug 2008 21:07

I am saying that Wikipedia is not a trustworthy source in many occasions. I remember f.e. Andreas tried to set-up a nice Wiki-page, and finally gave up as he couldn't beat the Russian Nationalists hijacking his page.

Also our beloved Royal Family member Mabel was caught deleting some Wiki-info on her behaviour with one of the biggest drugsdealers in Holland. Let's say our own little Dutch cigar-incident. She says no, his former boddyguard has some nice details.

Back to the late Bernhard. I've met him once after the may 5th parade in Wageningen and it was a charming man. However, that doesn't mean there's nothing to say about him. If we look at the Wiki-page there's a lot of nice info. But I'm missing one: the picture made right after he got married to Juliana: http://www.mokumtv.nl/oran002.htm

Look at the German guests, and Benhard standing with his heels together. It is said that Queen Wilhelmina demaded the Horst Wessel-song would be played. This picture was known to be somewhere, but the Royal Family always denied the alligations. And after many years, the picture was found.

Also the fact that the King Kong affair isn't mentioned in details is, let's say it carefully, rather strange. Lucky Bernhard, King Kong "took his own live" and we will never know what Bernhard's part was.

But back to topic. I do not read Bernhard flew combat missions with the RAF over Germany. I do not see any prove that Bernhard did fly this or that etc. The only thing mentioned is he told something during an interview.

I.mo. one source (interview) is no source is no prove.

This line however, says it all: "During the German Invasion, the Prince, carrying a machine gun, organised the palace guards into a combat group and shot at German planes."

Ok, the palace was guarded by the Dutch Army, but he organised the quards into a combat group. And he shot at German planes. So, we have to believe that, while the Germans were coming down on 3 places near The Haque, the only thing he did was organising the palace-quards into a combatgroup and shooting at German planes. He could have jumped in one of his cars and drive to the battlefield at Ockenburg, Ypenburg or Valkenburg, but he chose to stay in the palace. And then, after he left Holland, he flew combat missions over Germany?? No way i.m.o. Nice piece of propaganda though.

And since it is common known that specific information never reaches the people but stays behind closed doors for at least 150 years, or is just destroyed, I do not buy any heroic story about Bernhard without any proof. Unless you believe "From 1942 to 1944, Bernhard flew as a pilot with the Royal Air Force. He also helped organise the Dutch resistance movement and acted as personal secretary for Queen Wilhelmina." How stupid could one be letting him fly above Germany, or even occupied land, if he was involved like this. Unless the Brits, who didn't trust him, wanted him to be taken out by Flak. :lol:

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Adam Carr
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Re: Prince Bernhard

Post by Adam Carr » 07 Aug 2008 00:25

Unless you have a source that says he DIDN'T fly with the RAF, I will take Wikipedia's word on it. Your general dislike and distrust of the Dutch royals is not evidence.

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Re: Prince Bernhard

Post by Ypenburg » 07 Aug 2008 21:08

Adam Carr wrote:Unless you have a source that says he DIDN'T fly with the RAF, I will take Wikipedia's word on it. Your general dislike and distrust of the Dutch royals is not evidence.
My general dislike and distrust, as you claim it to be, is based on information you won't find on the biased Wiki-page. That information however, or the "extended" version of the information placed on the Wiki-page (we all know you can write things one way or the other just by the choise of words etc.) says something about how trustworthy someone is. The fact that everybody accepts that Bernhard joined the SA and SS and not even said "sorry" for it, whilest on the other hand we keep shouting that every German back then could have known because Hitler wrote everything in Mein Kampf, says something about a person. He too could have known, but still he joined the SA and SS. The fact that nowadays it is told that it was the un-harmfull Reiter SS, a bunch of man riding horses, is still in contradiction with his clame that it was all about driving a motorcycle. The fact that many details about his wrongdoings and many wrongsdoings were kept a secret says something too. There is to many info on "suspicious behaviour and connections" besides wrongdoings to just act like nothing happened.

Prince Bernhard f.e. "missed" a heritage of 87.000 Mark in 1944. He made a real big thing out of it and finally recieved 1.000.000 Mark. (http://www.elsevier.nl/web/society/prin ... oorlog.htm) compensation. The Dutch gouvernment paid him out of the 275.000.000 compensations paid by Germany(claiming the 1.000.000 was "hidden" within it). Not to mention al the other stuff he was involved in.

If a person like that during an interview years after the war says that he, without anybody knowing(Oops, Wiki-page forgot to mention that), flew missions with the RAF, and that interview is the main source of the Wiki-page, I find it not trustworthy. Especially when the Wiki-page writes it down like it actually happened i.s.o. writing that he said he did during an interview 45 years after the war ended. That's a big difference i.m.o.

My general dislike and distrust of the Dutch royals, as you claim it to be, has nothing to do with it. I pay my taxes, just like my family always did, and therefor have every right in the world to look at what members of that Family do or have done. The represent my country, my family, me. The fact that they are my Royal Family doesn't mean I have to prais them like they are Gods that can't do any wrong. And if someone of that family places himself in a not-to-be-trusted-even-if-he-or-she-is-Royalty-corner because of his or her actions, I name it. Even if I respect him very much for what he has done for our combat-veterans, when all politicians who send them into combat turned their backs on them.

But back to topic: That he crashed 2 Spitfire's is already known, so yes he did fly with the RAF. You mentioned flew combat-missions with the RAF over Germany and I asked for proof. Wiki doesn't provide any proof he flew combat-missions with the RAF over Germany , and what I think about what it says you already know. So please provide proof he flew combat-missions with the RAF over Germany.

Cheers

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Adam Carr
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Re: Prince Bernhard

Post by Adam Carr » 08 Aug 2008 01:41

Actually Wikipedia doesn't say he "flew combat missions over Germany." It says: "Prince Bernhard flew over occupied Europe in a B-24 bomber attacking V-1 launch pads, he was in a B-25 Mitchell bomber bombing Pisa, over the Atlantic ocean bombing a submarine and in an L-5 reconnaissance plane over occupied Europe. Prince Bernhard was awarded the Dutch Flying Cross for his "ability and perseverance" (Dutch: "bekwaamheid en volharding"). (source: Interview with the Prince,1993, Henny Meyer, published in "Het Vliegerskruis" 1997)

So, was he awarded the Dutch Flying Cross or not? If he was, what was he awarded it for? For flying, presumably.

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Re: Prince Bernhard

Post by Ypenburg » 08 Aug 2008 18:02

Remember this one:

Adam Carr on 16 May 2008 23:11

OK. A good quiz question: Who was I? I was the only member of the NSDAP and the SA to fly combat missions over Germany with the RAF.

You posted it after the Bernard/Claus postings, so my guess was you were talking about Bernhard. And that's why I asked about some proof he did.

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Re: Prince Bernhard

Post by Ypenburg » 08 Aug 2008 18:44

"So, was he awarded the Dutch Flying Cross or not? If he was, what was he awarded it for? For flying, presumably."

The Airforce isn't my thing, but as far as I know he was awarded that because of his "ability and perseverance" that took him to arrange Dutch men where trained as pilots in the Empire Training Scheme, after that joined the RAF and served in severall Britisch squadrons untill 167 Squadron (within Fighter Command) was set up. Severall Dutch pilots were placed within 167 squadron. 167 became 322 (Dutch) squadron later (although half of its pilots were Brits).

In order to get money to buy Spitfire's he arranged the Spitfire-fond and the Prins Bernhard-fond.

Prins Bernhard played a very important role re-building the Airforce but also building an Airtransport-organisation (in which the KLM would play an important part) for after the war. From 1943 on he was a member of the Stafcommissie Luchtstrijdkrachten which was ordered to make plans so the Dutch Airforce could, after the liberation of Holland, be extended (re-build) and take part in the war against Japan.

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Adam Carr
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Re: Prince Bernhard

Post by Adam Carr » 09 Aug 2008 00:41

Yes, you're right, I did say that. It was a loose remark which did not accurately reflect what the Wikipedia article says. It says he flew over Europe, but not specifically over Germany. If that's the point you are making, you are correct. But you seemed to be arguing that he didn't fly combat missions at all, and that he was lying about his wartime record.

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Re: Prince Bernhard

Post by Ypenburg » 11 Aug 2008 00:27

Adam Carr wrote:Yes, you're right, I did say that. It was a loose remark which did not accurately reflect what the Wikipedia article says. It says he flew over Europe, but not specifically over Germany. If that's the point you are making, you are correct. But you seemed to be arguing that he didn't fly combat missions at all, and that he was lying about his wartime record.
For as far as I know I've never used the word lying. But I do have my doubts and would like to see some effidence before I believe it. If you looked at my posting saying what Bernhard was busy with, it is hard to believe that he has been flying combat-missions at the risk of being downed ( so he could break during hearings and tell everything) or worse (to the monargie) he could be killed. IF it is true, and a big IF to me, then why did he kept it a secret untill he was interviewd 1999. There was no need for that.

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Adam Carr
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Re: Prince Bernhard

Post by Adam Carr » 11 Aug 2008 03:01

I don't speak Dutch, so perhaps you can tell if there is anything of interest in this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWEjmKzJ ... re=related

Ypenburg
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Re: Prince Bernhard

Post by Ypenburg » 11 Aug 2008 17:07

In short it says the Dutch journalist Philip Dröge did some new research about Bernhard. He had accused Bernhard before and Bernhard wrote an "open letter" to the left newspaper "De Volkskrant" in which he again claimed he was with the SS to be able to study etc. He openly accused Dröge to be a lyer.

Dröge now has found prove the Bernhard was not only with the Reiter SS, but also with the "Nazi Pilot Club" (he tried to become a pilot but was kicked out....remember 2 Spitfire's??), member of a Nazi Rally Club. He joint the Reiter SS in 1934 and became good friends with Walther Wunderlich, a real hardcore Nazi. Bernhard was also good with Himmler and via Himmler Wunderlich got a good job within the espionage and finnaly worked in camps. With the best regards from Bernhard who pulled some "Himmler-strings". He was captured after the war being a warcrime's suspect. Bernhard went to the Yanks and Brits, pulled some strings and Wunderlich was a free man.

Wunderlich was also one of the German guests putting his right arm in the air on Bernhard's marriage while the Horst Wessel-song was played. And Dröge found proof Bernhard still had his SS-contacts after his marriage. From the files it is also clear that Bernhard new very well what he was getting involved with.

Politics my friend......politics. Zum Kotzen.

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Re: Prince Bernhard

Post by James A Pratt III » 20 Aug 2008 19:48

Are there any books in English that deal with the Dutch Royal family post WWII? I think there is a Bio of Queen Julianna which has Prince Bernhard involved in some sort of bribery scandel? I have also read the Queen Beatrice has a tendency to push the envelope with her somewhat limited powers. Some politicians are upset over this. Any comments ect.

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