German casualties in the siege of Bastogne?

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xsli
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German casualties in the siege of Bastogne?

#1

Post by xsli » 20 Jul 2017, 22:44

I checked wiki and a few books on the siege (Osprey Campaign 145, Battered Bastards of Bastogne, The tigers of Bastogne, Those who held Bastogne), cannot find any casualty number on the german side.

Has anyone researched on this and is there an estimate available?

Carl Schwamberger
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Re: German casualties in the siege of Bastogne?

#2

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 21 Jul 2017, 00:21

A old margin note I have has "15,000". taken I recall from a magazine article of the 1980s. I suspect that number includes all losses reported by the German corps involved. All losses I suspect including severe frostbite, pneumonia, prisoners, deserters, and wounded. It may also include several days of battle around the perimeter after the siege was technically lifted.


Stiltzkin
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Re: German casualties in the siege of Bastogne?

#3

Post by Stiltzkin » 21 Jul 2017, 00:35

I have data (from the TDI , which is usually based on primary sources) for the 21-26 Dec 1944, Bastogne but only for the 47th : US 101st Airborne Division (defender) vs German XLVIIth Panzer Corps (attacker):

US vs German (losses in brackets):
troop strength: 20,441 (2,046) US vs 36,678 (1,662) German
tanks: 105 (103) vs 351 (50)

result: Succesful American defense.

xsli
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Re: German casualties in the siege of Bastogne?

#4

Post by xsli » 21 Jul 2017, 03:36

Thanks Stiltzkin - though your source only lists 101st in the US side, but there are other units like 10th armored (sure a minor role). The number of 20,441 seems to suggest that the US units include more than 101st since 101st only has slightly over 10,000. The losses of 101st match closely to wiki's if the 2046 do not include missing. However, wiki has 500+ losses on 10th armored.

Similar on the German units, they are more than XLVII Panzer Corps. But the 1,662 loss is the first time I saw and a reasonable one. If losses from other units were included, they may go over 2000 (assume a few hundred).

xsli
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Re: German casualties in the siege of Bastogne?

#5

Post by xsli » 21 Jul 2017, 03:49

Stiltzkin wrote:I have data (from the TDI , which is usually based on primary sources)
May I ask which one in - http://www.dupuyinstitute.org/tdipub3.htm?

I have Chris Lawrence's big book on Kursk - it is built upon his work at TDI. And, of course, the famous database the TDI team compiled on Kursk. So yes, the data should be reliable. The only variable is the scope of the siege. Wiki's seems to be a bit longer and wider.

Stiltzkin
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Re: German casualties in the siege of Bastogne?

#6

Post by Stiltzkin » 21 Jul 2017, 04:31

Finding reliable information on casualties for that period is difficult, the reporting system is extremely unreliable at the end of 1944 and the beginning of 45. There is info in OKW KTB p.1362 but only for the entire period up to 25.1. Bergström: The Ardennes listed it.
May I ask which one in
It is Volume 2, 1 from August 97 http://www.dupuyinstitute.org/pdf/v2n1.pdf page 8

xsli
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Re: German casualties in the siege of Bastogne?

#7

Post by xsli » 21 Jul 2017, 05:24

Thanks again Stiltzkin for the report. I found it in page 8. You must be a careful reader and have good memory - it is in tiny print.

Richard Anderson
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Re: German casualties in the siege of Bastogne?

#8

Post by Richard Anderson » 21 Jul 2017, 19:18

xsli wrote:Thanks Stiltzkin - though your source only lists 101st in the US side, but there are other units like 10th armored (sure a minor role). The number of 20,441 seems to suggest that the US units include more than 101st since 101st only has slightly over 10,000. The losses of 101st match closely to wiki's if the 2046 do not include missing. However, wiki has 500+ losses on 10th armored.

Similar on the German units, they are more than XLVII Panzer Corps. But the 1,662 loss is the first time I saw and a reasonable one. If losses from other units were included, they may go over 2000 (assume a few hundred).
Yes, like all the engagements derived from the ACSDB that one is a bit problematic. We chose 21 December as the "start" of the engagement because that was when the Germans cut the last road out. However, estimating the strength for the U.S. forces was a real headache, since it included not only the 101st, for which we had a decent idea of the strength, but also CCB, 10th AD, of which Team Desobry, Team Cherry, and Team O'Hara had been pounded in the delaying actions northeast and east of town, as had CCR, 9th AD (parts of which entered the defense). Then there was the 705th TD Battalion, which fortuitously entered the perimeter just before contact with the outside was lost, and the other odds and sods of VIII Corps, especially the fragments of artillery battalions and Team SNAFU from the 28th ID.

The Germans were almost as bad, given that Bastogne acted like a pin in a pinball machine with German units carooming off it early on. Essentially, the German strength we included was the 26. VGD plus the Lehr KG...we called it XLVIIth Panzer Corps for lack of a better name.

Loss estimates were also a problem. For the Germans, we had some data from the fragmentary Dekade reports of 5. Panzerarmee, but assigning losses to specific days wasn't easy and eventually devolved into a rote mechanism based on "active" and "inactive" days of combat (the nitty-gritty on how we did it is in Volume I of the Final Report). Ten years later, when I reviewed some of that work in a later effort on enemy POW estimations, I was able to refine some German loss estimates based on PWI, but that was mostly for the battles in early January.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell

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