The battle of Mont Ormel and Das Reich's counterattack

[mark67]

Does anybody has a photo of a 2nd PD Panther with a number 5 in its numerals so that we could compare the fonts?

Here you are:

[Cyprek]

Thank you very much. That is even better as we can see exactly the numbers that we are interested in - "15". To me the numerals of the 2nd PD are more similar to those from Boisjos Panther than of any other Panzer Division.

As we can see the SPW is from the Heer (WH - in the license plate).

What is more among the German soldiers who supported these vehicles was Hauptmann Dorazil (mentioned earlier in this thread). He claimed that he was an Austrian. For whole I know 2nd PD was formed mainly from Austrians.

The conclusion is: on 20th August, in the morning attack III./SS-Pz.Gr.Rgt. 4 was supported by some men of the 2nd PD (I exclude the option that those elements of the 2nd PD were the only ones to attack; Lieutenant Dr Szygowski reported that he saw POWs with SS runes on their collars after this attack).

[Sam Wren]

This Panther X35 is taken from the film "Is Paris Burning?". The numbers are hard to see. One unique feature of 2. Panzer Panthers is that they are one of the very few Panther units that painted the Divisional symbol on the tanks and in a unique position: on the turret forward of the turmnummber:



But, the first Panther you mentioned is indeed a Das Reich Panther. Das Reich Panther Turmnummers tended to be painted very well forward on the turret sides and also employed a small version painted in the top-left corner of the rear of the turret. The shapes of the numbers are also unique and somewhat standardized from the samples I have seen. Das Reich numbers tend to be more angular than those used by other divisions in Normandy.

I do not know the source of this photo. It was posted on the web but was obviously copies from a French publication. It shows the rear of a Das Reich Panther training in Bordeaux prior to D-Day:



This Panther, 421 (again from the web, e-bay i think) was k.o.-ed in Normandy against the Americans:



This one is from "Das Reich im Bild" I think, and shows Panther 415 in Russia. The style of the numbers was apparently carried over from Russian into Normandy:



Finally, these two photos of 432 are from Mark Yerger's "Knights of Steel Volume I", the first scanned as is from the book and the second heavily darkened to show the numbers better:





Das Reich also has a large number of Austrians in it.

I think that, because of the track hanger attachments on the turret, that it is more likely that this Panther belongs to 9. Panzer. 9. Panzer was very prominent in the Breakout from the inside of the pocket at Mont Ormel and there were more 9. Panzer Panthers there than 2. SS based on what I have read recently. Neither 2. Wiener (Heer) or 2. SS Das Reich Panthers carried tracks on their turrets. II./Pz.Rgt. 33 of 9. Panzer did carry numbers on the rear of the turret which were similar in size and location as those of Das Reich, but different in style. And, since the Panthers were in II. Abt, the numbering on the Panthers was totally different than any other division in Normandy. It is possible that numbers were painted on the sides of the turrets but were normally covered up by the spare tracks normally in place.

Can you see a number on the rear of the Panther in the PISM 2842 photo? that can be a really big clue. Maybe someone can order a bigger, clearer image to see?

sam

[Cyprek]

The main reason for which I don't believe that this Panther belinged to 2nd SS-PD is that "Das Reich" used numerals that are most probably just white oputlines. In the pictures from Boisjos we can see that the numbers are probably black. That makes 2 SS-PD a highly unlikely option I think.

Neither 2. Wiener (Heer) or 2. SS Das Reich Panthers carried tracks on their turrets.

There are exceptions. It is usually claimed that LAH Panthers carried spare tracks on their turrets. But I can remember at least 4 tanks that didn't carry tracks (including the tank of regimental commander's adiutant - "R02").

Most Panthers of Panzer Lehr didn't carry any spare tracks on their turrets. Bu there were some that did.

12th SS Panthers usually didn't carry any spare tracks applied to the turret. But there is at least one exceptopn (a command tank).

I have pictures of at least 2 Panthers from the 9th PD that didn't carry any tracks.

I admit that this one would be the first Panther from the 2nd PD that I know with some spare tracks applied to the turret. But as I wrote above, occasionally some exceptions occur.

Usually 9th PD Panthers didn't have any tactical numbers painted on the sided of their turrets. I know one picture with numerals painted on the rear of the turret (Panther 633). The numerals are very similar to those of the 2nd SS-PD. They look as if they were juct white outlines.

A white outline wouldn't look so dark in a photo as the numerals of that Panther from Boisjos look. What is more 2nd PD's numerals are really similar to those from Boisjos Panther.

Hauptmann Dorazil was from the Heer (Hauptmann), so if he was an Austrian, then it is probable that he came from the 2nd PD.

In the first picture you posted Sam we can see again 2nd PD's "5" (it's faintly visible) and again I think that the font i very similar to that from Boisjos Panther.

Can you see a number on the rear of the Panther in the PISM 2842 photo?

I have a feeling like I see that "5" on the rear hatch of the turret.

[Cyprek]

Here is a shot of the Panther "415" from the 2nd Pz.Div. (thanks to Sam Wren for posting it on the M-L forum). I guess it comes from the Wochenschau. One can compare the numerals with those of the Mon Ormel Panther. To me the numbers "15" are identical.





Which doesn't mean that the Mont Ormel Panther is "415". It doesn't have any spare tracks hung on the turret so I would say that "415" and Mont Ormel Panther are two different vehicles. The Mont Ormel Panther could be "115", "215" or "315".

[Sam Wren]

It is possible, however, that this is a 12. SS Panther. I am not as sure now that it belongs to 2. Pz as I was when I posted it. The general style fits 2. Pz but their numbers tend to be a little bit thinner and the placement doesn't look quite right. However, it does look like at least the "1" has been repainted, so perhaps it is not the original 415. If you read the whole thread Manus Gallagher mentions that the full clip shows SS men. I made the grab from a documentary that only shows a few seconds of the Panther itself. I am not even sure when it was made but am pretty confident that it was filmed in Normandy.

sam

PS: Cyprek: are you familiar with these books? http://www.ianallanpublishing.com/produ ... ctid=35079
I ordered one. If you haven't seen them I will let you know what is in it. I got it because it shows an Sd.Kfz 251 Stuka zu Fuss of Pz Pio. Bn 2 captured by 10 Mounted Rifles I believe (I posted an image of this same vehicle on ML but it was taken from a different book).

[Cyprek]

Cyprek: are you familiar with these books? http://www.ianallanpublishing.com/produ ... ctid=35079
I ordered one. If you haven't seen them I will let you know what is in it. I got it because it shows an Sd.Kfz 251 Stuka zu Fuss of Pz Pio. Bn 2 captured by 10 Mounted Rifles I believe (I posted an image of this same vehicle on ML but it was taken from a different book).

I've heard that this series conmtains numerous pics of the Polish Sherman tanks. but I haven't ordered any of volumes so far.

[Michael Kenny]

The Sikorski Institute in London has most of the WW2 Polish photos.
They have dozens of albums filled with wartime shots and I recomend it to anyone visiting London. The set up is a bit chaotic (I believe it is staffed mostly by volunteers) but once you get into the photo Archive it is well worth the trouble!
Last time I was there I was told this series of books used the Italian photo albums for all its contents.
One observation. The Poles seemed a bit more interested in photographing dead Germans than I have seen in other collections I visited!

[Barry Crook]

Hi

The Boisjos Panther is definitely 12.SS:

http://www.network54.com/Realm/normandi ... er_15_.jpg

So is this one:

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/8972 ... ex1rp1.jpg

They odds seem to be they are the same vehicle Cyprek.

Many 12.SS Panthers did not have tracks on the turrets, however those that did used similar track hangers to Pz Regt I./24, however I./24 did not fit them on the fwd section of the turret usually as per the Boisjos eg, nor did they use black and white numbers like this eg.

Panther unit marking and field mod characteristics were discussed at some length on ML between 2000-2005. It is worth searching back through the pages there, as many of the threads still have photos.

Cheers
Baz

[phillip burke]

hello, just a quick point about LAH and Hitlerjugend turret numbers. they added the number 5 to the last number so 131 would be 136, 234 would be 239. this was a practise brought from the LAH where it was believed that in russia the russians fired at tanks ending in 1 in the hope off eliminating commanding officers. source THE PANZERS AND THE BATTLE OF NORMANDY by G.BERNAGE

[tigre]

Hello to all ; a little complement..............................

Counterattack of SS-Der Führer to open the bag of Falaise 1944.

The American and Polish units that entered Chambois on the night of August 19, 1944 had found the city weakly defended. However, the skirmishes continued during the night, exploding sporadically: some German units, oblivious to the union that had just taken place between Poles and Americans, entered the city seeking to take advantage of the bridge. The 2. SS-Panzerdivision "Das Reich" had been left out of the bag thus formed.

On August 20, 1944, the struggles of the different units began to open a passage in the Allied siege in the sector south of Trun. The German attacks resumed in the morning, more systematically: their objective was to seize the city to capture an additional bridge in the Dives. Little by little, as the day progressed, the attacks were less and less organized, involving less motivated units.

The 2nd SS-Pz Div "Das Reich", regiment "Der Führer" in the lead, supported by heavy mortars, attacked the Western salient Polish positions established around the manor of Boisjos. Near Boisjos, the attack of the Der Fuhrer regiment was repulsed in one hour by the heavy fire provided by the battalions of hunters and the divisional artillery but accentuated the scarcity of ammunition which then affected in an increasing way the Poles.

Even as the paratroopers' attack weakened, the 2nd SS-PzD resumed its assault. This time, the Poles concentrated on the defense of their southern flank were overwhelmed and the SS infantry managed to jostle them, opening the way for the paratroopers: around noon, the junction was established, opening the pocket and allowing the imprisoned units to withdraw in the direction of Vimoutiers.

Sources: http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... /2SSPD.htm
http://www.memorial-montormel.org/20_ao ... 1_135.html
https://auction.catawiki.com/kavels/726 ... -1945-1962

Cheers. Raúl M 8).