Norwegian Army 1940

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jwsleser
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Re: Norwegian Army 1940

Post by jwsleser » 20 Apr 2019 16:56

Yan

It is actually Skolebat. (School Battalion). Skolebatt. is School battery. There are two Skolebatt. listed, one in A.R.1 and in A.R.2.

Each of the D.K. have a skole (school) unit to train newly enlisted/mobilized soldiers. The Skolebat. listed in D.K.1 was a battalion formed using the 1 Div. Skole as its cadre. It was an ad hoc unit.

Pista! Jeff
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yantaylor
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Re: Norwegian Army 1940

Post by yantaylor » 20 Apr 2019 17:02

Cheers Jeff!
Have a nice Easter.
Yan.

John T
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Re: Norwegian Army 1940

Post by John T » 20 Apr 2019 20:58

Hi Jeff
Sorry if I confused matters,
but my intention was to highlight that it was not only German interference with the mobilization
but also an older internal Norwegian problem that affected the mobilization.

But you made me to double check with Holms "9 April igen"
And the OB listed in that book are from the divisional commanders reports to GHQ in 1939.

Two field infantry and one Landvern(with Hotchkiss HMG) Battalion per regiment was the standard in the planning of 1939.
And each regiment had a training establishment "Øvelse styrkor" as part of the mobilization for replacements and/or expansion.

jwsleser wrote:
20 Apr 2019 14:37
RE: Number of battalions. While 55 battalions (and in 1933 a total 66 battalions) represent the plan, none of the sources list more than 32 organized battalions in 1940 (regimental battalions not including the independent battalions). While the depots might have held material to equip more than 32 battalions, there wasn't any plan in place to create/mobilize any additional battalions. The two 3rd battalions actually raised during the war were ad hoc and not in accordance with any prewar plan.
I would disagree, but the planning for a year of build up never came close to materialize and few historians bother about it,
since it had no effect at all on the actual fighting.
I would say Norwegians had a plan but the Germans wrecked the planning horizon totally.

jwsleser wrote:
20 Apr 2019 14:37

For me, this indicates that only 32 battalions could be raised as part of mobilization and the remaining 32 battalion were merely paper organizations with no intent to raise these additional battalions. 66 was a goal without any plan or preliminary work to actually raise those units.
My interpretation is that it's landvern, so "just" adding a second landvern Bn per regiment.

jwsleser wrote:
20 Apr 2019 14:37
The Issue Quisling addressed was that all those battalions where equally untrained.
Did any of the I and II battalions exist as cadre when they weren't mobilized for the Neutrality Watch/annual training? Were all the battalions mobilized for annual training each year? If so, at what strength level? If the Norwegians fully adopted the German system, all the battalions should exist in peacetime at some cadre level. If only at caretaker status, the training problem would never be solved.
Valid questions, they did not fully adopted the German system by any mean.
the answers to yr questions are No and No.
It took to 1937 for the first bigger refresher training since 1922!
The army had a total of 500 full time commissioned officers, the rest where conscripts with different length of training.
Otto Ruge (who became CinC during the war) claimed in 1938 that Norwegian army where the least trained and worst equipped army in Europe.

jwsleser wrote:
20 Apr 2019 14:37

Likely leader is the best term one can use to describe any soldier granted command authority. I hope this helps.
thanks

/John

John T
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Re: Norwegian Army 1940

Post by John T » 20 Apr 2019 21:57

jwsleser wrote:
20 Apr 2019 16:56
Yan

It is actually Skolebat. (School Battalion). Skolebatt. is School battery. There are two Skolebatt. listed, one in A.R.1 and in A.R.2.

Each of the D.K. have a skole (school) unit to train newly enlisted/mobilized soldiers. The Skolebat. listed in D.K.1 was a battalion formed using the 1 Div. Skole as its cadre. It was an ad hoc unit.

Pista! Jeff
One of the strengths of the "Arméer Flottor och Flyg" of 1939 is that it rather detailed on officers training.
And when we find the Norwegian brigades confusing, the training of Norwegian leaders of different ranks a pure mess.
Or at least the way they tries to verbally explain the different possible paths of career are confusing.

A Norwegian conscript could reach the rank of Captain,
5% of the conscript leaders above squad leader did so while 50% where Sargent, and the rest Ensigns or Lieutenants.

And if I got it it right, they might attended the higher theoretical military training "Krigsskolen"
As there where commissioned officers with or without "Krigsskolen"
And in addition you had those officers of the pre-1933 system that where "retired", since you could not sack a state employee.
They where not reserve officers per se but only paid when servicing ("unpaid officers" - sweet title)

In short each District Command had a leader school operating during parts of the year in peace time
and a national Officer training school (Krigsskolen) for theoretical studies.


If we look at the 3.Div skole (school) from the link
https://web.archive.org/web/20110605082 ... r_Commands

I reads it as
- befelsklasse + forskole 40 elev., forskole 48 elev., aspiranter 24
Officer class + preliminary training

Officer class 40 students
preliminary training 48 students and 24 aspiranter (officer Cadets)
troppsførerkursus 36 elev.
Platoon leader course 36 students

I assume the term Elev indicate conscripts that are students at higher education
(at least that would be the term used in Sweden)
At that time a higher theoretical training gave you a ticket to a leadership role in the army, until proved unsuitable.


Enlisted soldiers used for replacements and possibly newly formed units where part of the "Øvelseavd".

Cheers
/John

yantaylor
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Re: Norwegian Army 1940

Post by yantaylor » 25 Apr 2019 20:31

On the web site it mentions a unit in the 8/ID named ''Haugesundskompani'' does anyone know what type of company this is?

Yan.

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Re: Norwegian Army 1940

Post by jwsleser » 25 Apr 2019 20:46

It was an independent infantry company originally raised/stationed at Haugesund.

Pista! Jeff
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Re: Norwegian Army 1940

Post by yantaylor » 13 May 2019 20:27

Thanks Jeff!

Ian

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Re: Norwegian Army 1940

Post by yantaylor » 15 May 2019 10:22

Hi guys, I noticed that each of the brigades has a hospital unit or feltsykehus, now these seem to come in two types;

Motorisert feltsykehus & Festningssykehus

Now the first must be moterized but the second is rather odd because festing sounds like a fortress or castle or something.

So what would Festningssykehus mean in English.

Thanks
Yan

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Re: Norwegian Army 1940

Post by jwsleser » 15 May 2019 13:59

The literal translation is fortress hospital.

Here is where our lack of knowledge of Norwegian doctrine limits what we can determine. Examining the organization of the Norwegian Army, each brigade/division has one sanitær (medical) company and two motorized (mobile) field hospitals. My educated guess is that the sanitær companies were evacuation and triage, while medical treatment was mainly done at the field hospitals.

There are two Festningssykehus (sadly locations are not given). If I were discussing the Norwegian Army medical systems with only the limited info I currently have, I would call these two hospitals either garrison or army hospitals. They are not mobile and likely for long term care and convalesce. The fly in this understanding is the lack of locations. I would assume garrison and/or army hospitals are permanent and functional in peacetime. That doesn't appear to be the case with the info we currently have.

So why only two and why are both in the Oslo area (D.K.1)? I can only assume at this point in time that they are army hospitals, they support the entire force, and are located in the Oslo area because of infrastructure need to support a full-treatment hospital and long-term care.

Are they permanent or are they only mobilized in wartime? If mobilized, how does the Army provide medical care in peacetime? Do civilian hospitals care for military patients?

Pista! Jeff
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Re: Norwegian Army 1940

Post by yantaylor » 15 May 2019 21:08

This will need further investigation Jeff, but thanks for the info as I am sure I have gone wrong somewhere.

These are what I have for each Brigade;

1. Brig
Sanitetskompani Nr.1
Festningssykehus Nr.1

2. Brig
Sanitetskompani Nr.1
Festningssykehus Nr.2 & 8

3. Brig
Sanitetskompani Nr.3
Festningssykehus Nr.3 & 9

4. Brig
Sanitetskompani Nr.4
Festningssykehus Nr. 4 & 10

5. Brig
Sanitetskompani Nr.5
Motorisert feltsykehus Nr. 5 & 11

6. Brig
Sanitetskompani Nr.6
Motorisert Feltsykehus Nr.6 12 & 13

Yan

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Re: Norwegian Army 1940

Post by yantaylor » 17 May 2019 14:15

Jeff, I have amended my data now and each brigade has one Sanitetskompani and two Motorisert Feltsykehus [well except for the 6. Brigade which has three].

The two Festningssykehus are located at divisional level with the 1. Div, so wouldn't they be located in two of the three forts in the Fossum Fortress?

Yan

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Re: Norwegian Army 1940

Post by jwsleser » 17 May 2019 19:53

Yan

Festningssykehus 1 and 2. As I stated the location is not provided. One can assume that these hospitals are located inside one of the fortresses, but it is also possible that these are located nearby and not physically in the fortress. The name/title might of a historical/lineage nature and doesn't reflect the physical location/doctrinal relationship. Without understanding the doctrine of the Norwegian Army medical support, we are only making a SWAG.

I read 1. Div in the list as 1. DK. Division and D.K. appear to be used quite interchangeably. If truly assigned to the 1.Div, why don't the other divisions have Festningssykehus? It is inconsistent that one division has two such hospitals and the others lack any. It could be just a quirk in the Norwegian Army organization, but I feel it is more likely that the two army level hospitals are in the 1. D.K. area and not necessarily part of the 1. Div.

1.Brig. - Mot.feltsykehus 1 and 7,Sanitetskompani Nr.1
2.Brig. - Mot.feltsykehus 2 and 8, Sanitetskompani Nr.2
3.Brig. - Mot.feltsykehus 3 and 9, Sanitetskompani Nr.3
4.Brig. - Mot.feltsykehus 4 and 10, Sanitetskompani Nr.4
5.Brig. - Mot.feltsykehus 5 and 11, Sanitetskompani Nr.5 (corrected)
6.Brig. - Mot.feltsykehus 6, 12, and 13, Sanitetskompani Nr.6

Pista! Jeff
Last edited by jwsleser on 18 May 2019 15:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Norwegian Army 1940

Post by yantaylor » 18 May 2019 10:34

Hi Jeff, are you sure that 5. Brig had Mot.feltsykehus 5 and 17?

I get it as Mot.feltsykehus 5 and 11.

I am find it difficult to locate any units at divisional level, I have found a few though, although these are all types of military school, but even these are not in every division.

Divisjonskole
Befalsskolen
Troppsførerkurs
Forskole

Yan

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Re: Norwegian Army 1940

Post by jwsleser » 18 May 2019 15:28

Typo. It is 11.

The Army is organized at the brigade level. The division is more an administrative place holder until the Norwegians decided to organize larger units. Division = D.K. It has an administrative function, hence all schools are under its preview.

Pista! Jeff
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yantaylor
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Re: Norwegian Army 1940

Post by yantaylor » 18 May 2019 19:24

Jeff, I am current working on creating a framework for the six divisions, but after reading what you said, would it be better to just do the framework for the six brigades?

Was you correct with the Mot.feltsykehus 5 and 17?

Yan

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