Ironmachine wrote: ↑14 Jun 2019, 08:19
DerGiLLster wrote:I did look this up and I did find there were 8 raids on Berlin during the whole of 1941. Again, just quick research, so correct me if I am wrong.
It appears these happened only out of suprise. In the case of airships, there would have to be greater heights of security and awareness, so to protect them, making
interception less likely. But these are the germans, they find a way to screw up.
And raids on Königsberg, on Danzig, and 9 raids on Helsinki IIRC, several raids on Constanța, several attacks against King Carol I Bridge over the Danube... The
Soviets could and did attack beyond the frontline in 1941 (and it seems the Germans had an exceptional capacity for surprise, if you think all that happened only out
of surprise
)
I feel as if it goes back to my statement of surprise. The Germans and Finns were really careless about such raids as they believed the war would be over by then. With
zeppelins, it is a different story, as they will take major precautions for it being vulnerable.
I already mentioned fighter sweeps as reducing that concern.
pugsville wrote: ↑14 Jun 2019, 10:09
DerGiLLster wrote: ↑14 Jun 2019, 06:50
A liberty makes roughly 12-13 mph. The German zeppelins could make more than six times that speed. Since we are talking about American application of logistics,
American airships could use cyclone engines which were lighter and had twice as much horsepower. That could make such American airships go 7-8 times as fast. So in
this case, it would be less than 100 airships to equal the USS Liberty.
Bigger more powerful engines more fuel consumption 58 tons of fuel was used by the Hindenburg. Faster may eat heavily into carrying capacity.
The 58 tons is for hydrogen only. Pretty sure hydrogen does not figure into the engines providing the push of the airships. If going by the link reedwh52 posted, the
LZ 129 carried 8818 pounds of fuel or 4.5 tons.
Going faster will reduce carrying capacity? Does that mean that a muscle car will carry less than a sedan? I trust what most people are saying here, but I think you
need to explain this post further. The engines Germany used were designed in the early 1930s(using them as a recent example to showcase for american airships), while
the engines American airships used were designed in the late 1930s. Using the Wright Duplex Cyclone engines they provide two to three times the power Germanys DB 603
engines(2800 vs 1100 hp). Displacement of the Wright Duplex Cyclone engines are 55 liters, meanwhile the DB 602 are 88.5 liters. Shows that the American engines are
not only more powerful, but more efficient as well.
DerGiLLster wrote: ↑14 Jun 2019, 06:50
Plus unloading cargo on land is faster and easier than at a harbor.
Not necessarily,. You got a large area were a 1,000 Hindenburg can moor easily, the land area required would be massive.
To get the same loaded capacity (and saying 100 tons is capacity which looks very generous) as 1 liberty ship that's 70 airships each considerably large than a liberty
ship. so say 150 times the loading area. Take New York harbor and make it 150 times bigger, and now need it to be flat land. Just where are you going to find that?
and you have to get things UP to the airship. Deflating them was and inflating would require more infrastructure. More time.
All the ports exist , docks, cranes, railways. But for airships, your not using the same thins. Now yo have to build the infrastructure of a airship port, hangers,
cranes, mooring posts, giant flat fields and build railways to them.
It is easier, as the railroads are already built. There are rails next to tens thousands of square kilometers of forest in middle england. That is where to find it.
They can be chooped down for such flat area. The US producing more cranes and tractors to clear such flat lands is not a hard task to fulfill. The US can chop down
these forests and built such hangars and masts.
I take back my 100 tons figure as reedwh52 posited that no airship can carry 100 tons. He himself stated that the Hindenburg had 22 tons when crossing the Atlantic.
For American airships to still use the 10 ton figure, that is still fair game. Using hydrogen is not going to be difficult as any industrialized nation can mass
produce it.
The Americans barely dipped to half their infrastructure. If they had to higher to achieve such results for the airships, they could absolutely do it, if they wish to
see a faster end to the war, and to have smaller risks when transporting goods across the Atlantic.
DerGiLLster wrote: ↑14 Jun 2019, 06:50
I think I should note that an airship is faster. The zeppelin can more than 6 trips to equal the time a typical cargo ship can. An American airship(which leat's be
honest, America was superior when it came to any logistics in the field) can make 7-8 times, with cyclone engines powering their airships. So it wouldn't be 180,000
thousand. It would be around 25,000.
no allowance for any loading and unloading time.
What makes you say that? Cargo goods off ships stay in the harbor for a while making ti vulnerable to bombardent. Goods in land on larger airfields are more difficult
to attack as there is greater response time by fighters.
DerGiLLster wrote: ↑14 Jun 2019, 06:50
So instead of 900,000 to train is would be around 130,000 to train. Around five percent of what the USAF was in March 1944(basing off of Wikipedia.)
only 300,000 technical aircrew pilots, navigators, bombardiers were trained during the war. training half the amount again is not trivial. even going by your figures.
And that's not counting ground crew. Al those extra engines, it would be like operating another 25,000 flying fortresses (even going by your figures, and I'd claim
loading, unloading, maintenance etc your going to need more a lot more.
What do bombardiers have to do with airships? They are designed to transport goods, not drop bombs. Who also says that airplane pilots can't switch to zeppelins while
aircraft are being repaired such as bombers, or maybe regular airline pilots.
America was able to build close to a million engines in World War Two. They could definitely build a couple hundred thousand more if they wanted to. And these engines
are already chosen. Mass amnufacture is easy when it involves the same engines as different types of engines involve more infrastructure to build.
DerGiLLster wrote: ↑14 Jun 2019, 06:50
I am using what wikipedia is basing off of "useful lift" which seems explanatory for how much it is. It appears the Zeppelin could lift 100 tons. The M Class zeppelins
at the beginning of World War One, in August 1914, could lift 20,100 pounds or 10 tons. So it seems unlikely that in the 20 years after, its payload hasn't changed.
The Physics of gas lift is not going to change. It's just a constant it;s hard to see teh airships been made massively lighter, already hi tech.
It's not an evolving technology.
And if Helium is used, it's going to much less.
https://medium.com/@Jernfrost/calculati ... df5cd7d147
https://www.airships.net/helium-hydrogen-airships/
The Hindenburg is nearly twice as big and has more powerful engines. The size will make for the bigger factor. Also, cow stomachs were used to fill for the airships in
World War One. The American could definitely design graphene bladders to lighten the airship, and increase its payload capacity. I already stated before in my other
posts that helium will not be used at all, as it is harder to produce and more expensive.
Not sure what your medium article did, it really just recycled the airnet website.
DerGiLLster wrote: ↑14 Jun 2019, 06:50
The Americans could build air bases in England and North Africa. Much more easier to construct than artificial harbors, docks and harbors in general. America could
absolutely increase their construction and steel industry to build such airships.
the Ports mostly exist. They don;t have to be constructed. They have railways, trained workers, infrastructure. Building new airship ports and associated
infrastructure is a cost of the scheme.
Flat fields already exist in North Africa. Chopping dwon forests in England will be no issue for American cranes and bulldozers. Air force crew can be used as ground
crew to maintain the engines and pressure. The railroads already exist. I believe my example for mulberry harbor stands. If the American can build that, than fields
for airships should be no problem.
DerGiLLster wrote: ↑14 Jun 2019, 06:50
Not all weather aircraft? Why. I haven't come across this before. That would be sad to hear if the weather over the Atlantic prevented airships from going. Do you know
of any historic meteorology reports from the war? I would like to know of the bad storms and their effects. Well what about the summer? Almost no storms at all.
Storms do figure in quite a number of airship accidents. Hindenburg operated only a summer season on the Atlantic route.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airship_accidents
Virtually all the accidents in the wiki article could have been avoided. Better management and safety check of airships, and flying in summer and winter months would have massively reduced the riskof dying and/or crashing.
Kingfish wrote: ↑14 Jun 2019, 19:23
DerGiLLster wrote: ↑14 Jun 2019, 06:50
A liberty makes roughly 12-13 mph. The German zeppelins could make
more than six times that speed.
Whatever advantage you get from a faster Atlantic crossing is more than offset by the negligible lift the airship can carry.
BTW, that six times figure is max speed. You need to factor cruising speed. Wiki lists the USS Los Angeles at 55 mph but I doubt that takes into consideration a 10 ton
load. For the sake of argument lets stick with 55mph / 10 tons. You now have a transport that can make the crossing 4x faster than a Liberty yet lift less than 5%.
I'm not seeing the logic in this.
There are some factors to point out on the USS Los Angeles.
First, it was powered by helium, not hydrogen, so it had lower lift, and thus had to decrease speed in order to max its range. The extra equipment was to recover water
to preserve the lift, while hydrogen didn't need extra equipment for such lift.
Second there are five engines on the USS Los Angeles each around 400 hp. Those engines were made in 1924. If engines were to be used they could use Wright Duplex
Cyclone engines, most variants could pull over 2,500 hp, nearly six times the power of the engines used on the USS Los Angeles. Cruising speed with those engines would
not only be more fuel efficient, but could easily venture into having a maintained speed to 80-90 mph.
So it could definitely make an 7-8x tines faster load, considering the use of hydrogen and the Cyclone engines.