German divisions facing Polish 1st Armored Division in Normandy and the Netherlands

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CS1985
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German divisions facing Polish 1st Armored Division in Normandy and the Netherlands

Post by CS1985 » 21 Sep 2021 17:54

Hello,
I am very much interested in any information on the German infantry divisions which fought against the Polish 1st Armored Division in Normandy and later in the Netherlands. Are there any documents available on the Internet? Maybe somebody could give me some hint on this?

I have on mind both the German documents and the documents produced by the intelligence of the 1st Canadian Army.

I am particularly interested in these German divisions in Normandy: 85 ID, 89 ID, 272 ID...

...and the following infantry divisions in action in the Netherlands (September 44 - March 45): 59 ID, 64 ID, 164 ID, 245 ID, 346 ID, 711 ID, 712 ID, 719 ID.

I'm also interested in the Dutch SS Regiment Niederlanden (Landstorm Nederland??), StuG Batterie 667 (or Stug Abteilung 667?) and schwere Panzerjager Abteilung 559 (the actions that these units saw in the Netherlands to be specific).

Some book recommendations would also be good.

Any help much appreciated.

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AETIUS 1980
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Re: German divisions facing Polish 1st Armored Division in Normandy and the Netherlands

Post by AETIUS 1980 » 21 Sep 2021 18:23

Good evening, there is a history of the 216 / 272.Inf.Div written by Martin JENNER after the conflict, a document which served as a basis for a work on the 272.Inf.Div by Didier LODIEU. There is the interrogation work carried out by the Americans (around 1947) with the Ia of the 89.Inf.Div and the Div.Kdr of the 85.Inf.Div. Even if some people criticize the research carried out by Hubert MEYER within the framework of his history of the "HJ" division, there remains only information that is good to take in order to understand the context of the fragmentation of the German device.
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CS1985
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Re: German divisions facing Polish 1st Armored Division in Normandy and the Netherlands

Post by CS1985 » 21 Sep 2021 18:43

Thank you for the info!
Even if some people criticize the research carried out by Hubert MEYER within the framework of his history of the "HJ" division, there remains only information that is good to take in order to understand the context of the fragmentation of the German device.
I'm familiar with the book by H. Meyer. I was thinking about something more detailed. B. Reid's book "No holding back" gives the locations of particular battalions of 89 ID (unfortunately only for 8th August 44). I believe that this information was based on some allied intelligence reports.

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Re: German divisions facing Polish 1st Armored Division in Normandy and the Netherlands

Post by Sheldrake » 22 Sep 2021 11:03

Two of the guns at Merville Battery (1./AR 1716=) were eventually taken by the Polish Armoured Division at Ieper. Source Steiners War.

CS1985
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Re: German divisions facing Polish 1st Armored Division in Normandy and the Netherlands

Post by CS1985 » 22 Sep 2021 18:05

Sheldrake wrote:
22 Sep 2021 11:03
Two of the guns at Merville Battery (1./AR 1716=) were eventually taken by the Polish Armoured Division at Ieper. Source Steiners War.
Interesting, thanks for the info.

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Re: German divisions facing Polish 1st Armored Division in Normandy and the Netherlands

Post by CS1985 » 24 Sep 2021 18:28

Well, I've managed to find this study prepared by the Canadian Army in 1950s (and declassified in 1986!):

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp ... ahq069.pdf

It is mainly focused on the actions of different Corps and divisions rather than specific regiments or battalions.

The sources that were used to write this study are also interesting and possibly more detailed. As mentioned above, after the war German POWs prepared reports covering the actions of their units. Such reports are available for the 89 ID, 719 ID, 67 Army Corps, 88 AC, 89 AC and other units. Unfortunately these report are not available on the Internet. Or maybe somebody has it and could share it?

Regarding the original German documents. The war diary (KTB) of the 88th Army Corps exists (and some additional documents). Moreover, some documents on the actions of the 89 AC are available (but it is not a war diary). Fragments of 712 Infantry Division's KTB survived along with other documents. I've read that in September 1944 the staff of 712 ID was evacuated in a rush due to a breakthrough of the 1st Polish AD. A lot of documents were left behind and then captured by the Poles. So maybe that is the reason why the unit's KTB is incomplete.

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Re: German divisions facing Polish 1st Armored Division in Normandy and the Netherlands

Post by CS1985 » 24 Sep 2021 23:13

164 ID surrendered in Tunisia back in 1943. Thus, the Polish 1st AD's war diary must be wrong when stating that prisoners from this division were taken. They probably meant 64th ID.

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Re: German divisions facing Polish 1st Armored Division in Normandy and the Netherlands

Post by Kingfish » 25 Sep 2021 03:17

CS1985 wrote:
24 Sep 2021 23:13
164 ID surrendered in Tunisia back in 1943. Thus, the Polish 1st AD's war diary must be wrong when stating that prisoners from this division were taken. They probably meant 64th ID.
You are thinking of the 164th Leichte Afrika division, which was destroyed in Tunisia.

The 164th ID became the Festung Division Kreta and did not see action in NWE.
The gods do not deduct from a man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.
~Babylonian Proverb

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Re: German divisions facing Polish 1st Armored Division in Normandy and the Netherlands

Post by AETIUS 1980 » 25 Sep 2021 08:14

They were definitely from 64 Inf.Div. You can still find some sub units of 59 Inf.Div and some stragglers from 70.Inf.Div (main part was in Walcheren).
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Re: German divisions facing Polish 1st Armored Division in Normandy and the Netherlands

Post by CS1985 » 25 Sep 2021 11:45

My knowledge about the units in action against the Poles is mainly based on the reports by General S. Maczek. He mentions also 71 Inf Div but it is clearly a misspelling as this division was at this time in Italy. He could have meant 712 Inf Div or 70th.

It turns out that there are some interesting files in the Canadian archives. I'll try to get access to these gradually. Perhaps the lacking fragments of 712 Inf Div KTB could be found there.

The reports by Gen. Maczek also mention some battlegroups. These are: KG Stein, KG Melmer Dinger (?) and KG Müller. I'm familiar with the last KG, because I've found this on the Internet:

Image

https://www.wargamedesignstudio.com/202 ... eferences/

Maybe somebody has an idea which collection of documents this schematic comes from?

I don't know if I understand this correctly. Did II./SS-Rgt. 1 Niederland have six infantry companies? Four companies + Kp. Himnrichsen + Kp. Baumann?

Regarding the manpower, I understand 9/41/304 means 9 officers, 41 non-commisioned officers and 304 men (?).

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Re: German divisions facing Polish 1st Armored Division in Normandy and the Netherlands

Post by AETIUS 1980 » 25 Sep 2021 15:05

It seems to me that the command organ of II.Battalion served as Stab for the benefit of the Kampfgruppe, by stacking its 4 organic companies, two made up of various elements and finally the Feld Ersatz Battalion. 1719 (719.Inf.Div). Your understanding is correct in terms of the distribution of officers / NCOs and private.
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Re: German divisions facing Polish 1st Armored Division in Normandy and the Netherlands

Post by CS1985 » 25 Sep 2021 19:54

OK, thanks for the explanation. So I understand that companies Hinrichsen and Baumann were not necessarily SS units.

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Re: German divisions facing Polish 1st Armored Division in Normandy and the Netherlands

Post by AETIUS 1980 » 25 Sep 2021 20:47

That's right, it could be everything and nothing. Unit raised from Ersatz Heer or already existing units, even from Luftwaffe or Kriegsmarine. You hade so many stragglers from AOK. 7 and 15 (and 1st Fallschirm.Armee) in September that it could be difficult to find the origin of lonely coy's.
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Re: German divisions facing Polish 1st Armored Division in Normandy and the Netherlands

Post by CS1985 » 26 Sep 2021 11:34

Thanks for clarifying this.

Maybe somebody is familiar with this book?

Image

For whole I know this book contains a description of a clash between the elements of 1st Polish AD and some Jagdpanthers of schwere Panzerjager Abteilung 559 i n October 1944 near Moerdijk. However, it seems that this book is more focused on photographs. Are there some other actions of 1st Polish AD described in the book?

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Re: German divisions facing Polish 1st Armored Division in Normandy and the Netherlands

Post by Stephan » 09 Oct 2021 18:08

CS1985 wrote:
24 Sep 2021 23:13
164 ID surrendered in Tunisia back in 1943. Thus, the Polish 1st AD's war diary must be wrong when stating that prisoners from this division were taken. They probably meant 64th ID.
If they wrote they were taken in warfare there in Europe, it must be some typo yes.

But if they did mentioned about POWs from 164 it may be some misunderstanding. The Polish army in West did happily recruited german POWs of polish ancestry, or from polish minority people, alike the Schlesians, Kaszubs... Whom were drafted into Wehrmacht. But if they did spoke polish, and were willing to change sides, the Polish forces in West did happily recruited them. As I understand, they were into 10 thousands of them...
Its even said some taken POW in the battle around Falaise, were used anew in fight within 48 hours...

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