Artillery Observation

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jbroshot
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Re: Artillery Observation

Post by jbroshot » 23 Nov 2022 04:37

A 2000 US Army history of Army airborne artillery spotting in WWII, which is available for downloading

EYES OF ARTILLERY: THE ORIGINS OF MODERN U.S. ARMY AVIATION IN WORLD WAR II

https://history.army.mil/catalog/pubs/70/70-31.html

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Urmel
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Re: Artillery Observation

Post by Urmel » 23 Nov 2022 12:33

Sheldrake wrote:
09 Sep 2021 17:47
Looking at the German air force in North Africa on the eve of El Alamein, there doesn't seem to be any army co-operation squadrons at all. There are Fi 156 in the courier flight (for generals0 and in the desert search and rescue. http://niehorster.org/011_germany/42-oo ... frika.html
2.(H)/14 and 4.(H)/12 are the army cooperation squadrons.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Sheldrake
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Re: Artillery Observation

Post by Sheldrake » 23 Nov 2022 16:44

Urmel wrote:
23 Nov 2022 12:33
Sheldrake wrote:
09 Sep 2021 17:47
Looking at the German air force in North Africa on the eve of El Alamein, there doesn't seem to be any army co-operation squadrons at all. There are Fi 156 in the courier flight (for generals0 and in the desert search and rescue. http://niehorster.org/011_germany/42-oo ... frika.html
2.(H)/14 and 4.(H)/12 are the army cooperation squadrons.
.... equipped with fourteen our of the thirty six Me109 F4 R3 manufactured. This was a recce version of the Me109 with with a Rb.50/30 camera in a fairing aft of the cockpit, in place of radio equipment. This looks a fine aircraft for tactical photo recce, but not so great for air OP work. Maybe the radios were re-fitted at unit level, but in any event a high speed fighter is less than ideal as an artillery observation aircraft.

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Urmel
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Re: Artillery Observation

Post by Urmel » 23 Nov 2022 18:00

Sheldrake wrote:
23 Nov 2022 16:44
Urmel wrote:
23 Nov 2022 12:33
Sheldrake wrote:
09 Sep 2021 17:47
Looking at the German air force in North Africa on the eve of El Alamein, there doesn't seem to be any army co-operation squadrons at all. There are Fi 156 in the courier flight (for generals0 and in the desert search and rescue. http://niehorster.org/011_germany/42-oo ... frika.html
2.(H)/14 and 4.(H)/12 are the army cooperation squadrons.
.... equipped with fourteen our of the thirty six Me109 F4 R3 manufactured. This was a recce version of the Me109 with with a Rb.50/30 camera in a fairing aft of the cockpit, in place of radio equipment. This looks a fine aircraft for tactical photo recce, but not so great for air OP work. Maybe the radios were re-fitted at unit level, but in any event a high speed fighter is less than ideal as an artillery observation aircraft.
I'm reasonable certain Niehorster is wrong here, and they only got the R3 when they went into Tunisia. 2.(H)/14 wasn't at Alamein. 4.(H)/12 had a mix of R3, E-7, and in April had received 6 Bf110 from 2.(H)/14 when they were withdrawn for reequipping.

As for high-speed fighters not being great for aerial artillery spotting, sure, but they still did do the job.

https://rommelsriposte.com/2019/12/30/i ... -spotting/ - Hurricane's in late 1941 doing artillery spotting.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

Richard Anderson
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Re: Artillery Observation

Post by Richard Anderson » 23 Nov 2022 18:51

Sheldrake wrote:
23 Nov 2022 16:44
Urmel wrote:
23 Nov 2022 12:33
Sheldrake wrote:
09 Sep 2021 17:47
Looking at the German air force in North Africa on the eve of El Alamein, there doesn't seem to be any army co-operation squadrons at all. There are Fi 156 in the courier flight (for generals0 and in the desert search and rescue. http://niehorster.org/011_germany/42-oo ... frika.html
2.(H)/14 and 4.(H)/12 are the army cooperation squadrons.
.... equipped with fourteen our of the thirty six Me109 F4 R3 manufactured. This was a recce version of the Me109 with with a Rb.50/30 camera in a fairing aft of the cockpit, in place of radio equipment. This looks a fine aircraft for tactical photo recce, but not so great for air OP work. Maybe the radios were re-fitted at unit level, but in any event a high speed fighter is less than ideal as an artillery observation aircraft.
On the "eve of Alamein", 1 October 1942, 4.(H)/12 had one Bf 110F-3 trop, one Bf 109E-7 trop, and twelve Bf 109F-4/R3. As Urmel noted, 2.(H)/14 was re-equipping and had no aircraft as of 1 October but received five Bf 109F-4/R3 during the month.

By then, as I understand it, most (2.(H)/12 retained theirs through September 1943 and 1.(H)/13 through December 1943, there are probably others) of the Heeres-Aufklärungs Staffeln had converted from Hs 126 that most started the war with to the FW 189 or to Bf 109/110 reconnaissance aircraft.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

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