Yup, they're 6" Mark VII guns, the most common coast defence artillery piece. Picture taken from here http://www.fsgfort.com/Cmate/79/Short.htmjohnbryan wrote: What are those? Six or eight inch guns?
Rich, you have mis-calculated the 25 pdr production, there were also 299 of the 18 pdrs converted to 25 pdrs, + new 18 pdr production. There were 638 of 18 or 25 pdrs produced June - Aug, not 252.RichTO90 wrote:
But of course as 25-pounder became available many of the 75mm were re-issued, first to the 'Home Counties' brigades and later divisions and then to the Home Guard. However, a fair number of them may have been shipped to Egypt, since the 75mm shows up there in the Western Desert as well. I'll check but I believe some arrived there as early as November or December of 1940, evidently coming from England?
The point is that they only needed to be a stopgap to fill the minor shortfall between new production of 25-pounders and the losses sustained in France. Thanks for the reminder about Nigel's wonderful site, we know that the numbers of artillery in the UK as of the end of May 1940 were:
126 18-pdr
269 18/25-pdr
90 25-pdr +252 produced June-September = 342
So 737 total field guns, sufficient for 30 regiments with a small reserve of 17 pieces. That's enough to fully equip 10 divisions. Now a quick check shows there were just 17 regular regiments in the UK at that time, plus 5 RHA, while there were 82 TA, so 104 regiments to be equipped and a requirement for 2,496 pieces in total. That of course amounts a minimal shortfall of about 864 guns to WE, even if we add in the 895 US guns.
So the situation looks far better, with all artillery regiments up to strength by mid-Aug (although not all with 18 or 25 pdrs)Gooner1 wrote:TAs at 3rd October 1940 artillery in Brocforce area was:-
Eight 6" Medium Howitzers.
Two Field Regiments - 25 Pdr. 4.5" How. and 75 mm.
Eight 12 Pdr Guns on Lorries.
......
By mid August there would be 23 medium regiments:There were something like 27 medium regiments formed, so a requirement for 432 pieces. The 434 available were just sufficient, especially when the production of June-September is added in.
321 4.5-inch howitzer
14 60-pdr guns (being converted to 4.5-inch)
5 4.5-inch/60-pdr guns (converted)
94 6-inch howitzer.
Sorry, but that is incorrect. There was no new 18-pdr production. 18-pdr converted to 25-pdr is not 25-pdr production, although, yes, the 299 possible conversions counted as "expected increases" in the May 1940 accounting should have been included as a speculative addition, since I have been unable to confirm those figures. However, conversions of the 18/25-pdr totaled 611 prewar and 811 during the war (through 1941), so 1,422 altogether. Of those as of the May 1940 accounting, 704 were lost by the BEF, 269 remained in the UK, and 146 were overseas, so 1,119, leaving 303. It could be that 299 of those were completed June-September 1940 and the remaining four October 1940-sometime in 1941, but I doubt it.Freebird wrote:Rich, you have mis-calculated the 25 pdr production, there were also 299 of the 18 pdrs converted to 25 pdrs, + new 18 pdr production. There were 638 of 18 or 25 pdrs produced June - Aug, not 252.RichTO90 wrote:126 18-pdr
269 18/25-pdr
90 25-pdr +252 produced June-September = 342
The 25-pdr was intended as a universal replacement for the 13-pdr, 18-pdr, and 4.5-inch howitzer. Under the 1939 and 1940 W.E.'s there were provisions for Field Regiments consisting of first 16 18-pdr and 8 4.5" and then later 12 18-pdr and 12 4.5". However, the 60-pdr was not ever considered a field piece and was only found in the Medium Regiments R.A. until it was replaced by the 5.5" gun-howitzer.Also the 4.5" howitzer (114mm) and the 60 pdr (127mm) were used as field artillery, not medium.
Freebird, if you take a look at David Newbold's thesis on anti-invasion preparations - then you find there what the siutation was, both in the text and in table form, per division/unit, in the Appendicies. Given, of course, that numbers manufactured might NOT actually be quite the same as number issued/in service....On Aug 16 the British forces might look like this:
Hi Phylo, do you have a link?phylo_roadking wrote:Freebird, if you take a look at David Newbold's thesis on anti-invasion preparations - then you find there what the siutation was, both in the text and in table form, per division/unit, in the Appendicies. Given, of course, that numbers manufactured might NOT actually be quite the same as number issued/in service....On Aug 16 the British forces might look like this:
Indeed, I should have put "additional guns available" not "new production".RichTO90 wrote:Sorry, but that is incorrect. There was no new 18-pdr production.Freebird wrote: Rich, you have mis-calculated the 25 pdr production, there were also expected 299 - 18 pdrs converted to 25 pdrs, + "expected increase" 18 pdr production. There were 638 of 18 or 25 pdrs produced June - Aug, not 252.
The origin for the 638 is simple, it is for 25, 18/25 & 18 pdrsRichTO90 wrote:
18-pdr converted to 25-pdr is not 25-pdr production, although, yes, the 299 possible conversions counted as "expected increases" in the May 1940 accounting should have been included as a speculative addition, since I have been unable to confirm those figures. However, conversions of the 18/25-pdr totaled 611 prewar and 811 during the war (through 1941), so 1,422 altogether. Of those as of the May 1940 accounting, 704 were lost by the BEF, 269 remained in the UK, and 146 were overseas, so 1,119, leaving 303. It could be that 299 of those were completed June-September 1940 and the remaining four October 1940-sometime in 1941, but I doubt it.
Otherwise, production of new 25-pdr may be found in Table 22 (p. 176 of Postan, British War Production):
June - 42
July - 60
August - 72
September -78
Total - 252
If you have a source that states that the British converted 386 18/25-pdr June-September 1940 (the difference between the 252 25-pdr and your claim for 638) I would be curious to hear it.
I was suggesting that the 60 pounder batteries could be temporarily deployed with the Territorial regiments as a stopgap measure. The 4.5" how WAS used in the field regiments though.RichTO90 wrote:The 25-pdr was intended as a universal replacement for the 13-pdr, 18-pdr, and 4.5-inch howitzer. Under the 1939 and 1940 W.E.'s there were provisions for Field Regiments consisting of first 16 18-pdr and 8 4.5" and then later 12 18-pdr and 12 4.5". However, the 60-pdr was not ever considered a field piece and was only found in the Medium Regiments R.A. until it was replaced by the 5.5" gun-howitzer.Also the 4.5" howitzer (114mm) and the 60 pdr (127mm) were used as field artillery, not medium.
Cheers!
As a semi-informed guess, I would suggest wooden-wheeled hows in storage taken out, re-furbed, and converted to pneumatic tires.Freebird wrote:Indeed, I should have put "additional guns available" not "new production".
Going by the table, there were 126 - 18pdr guns on hand, and an "expected increase" of 63 - (NOT 18/25 pdrs)
Where would these 63 guns have come from?
If you go to the British Library website, and sign up (free) to the EThos System there for digitised, catalogued printed material, it's a free download.Hi Phylo, do you have a link?
When you read it - and you have to read it, a LOT of the history of artillery distribution is in the main body of text - you're in for a big suprise if you think the situation was that good!Total is 2,346 - so a shortfall of 150 guns, not 864, meaning that only about 6 regiments would be short of artillery.
phylo_roadking wrote:When you read it - and you have to read it, a LOT of the history of artillery distribution is in the main body of text - you're in for a big suprise if you think the situation was that good!
Well how many field artillery guns did they have then?phylo_roadking wrote: When you read it - and you have to read it, a LOT of the history of artillery distribution is in the main body of text - you're in for a big suprise if you think the situation was that good!
