Seelöwe - German & British mining operations

[RichTO90]

Of course you are correct about this. But, as with the Luftwaffe, not all KM units would necessarily have to perform all tasks simultaneously.

No, units do not have to perform all tasks simultaneously, but just as necessarily individual vessels cannot do two or more things at once. T-Boote cannot carry assault troops to shore and sweep at the same time. M-Boot cannot sweep and engaged fleet units at the same time. And so on. So there has to be sufficent units and individual vessels to perform all the tasks required.

As for mining - Klee writes:

"For flank protection of the crossing routes there were planned laying tactical minefields. The average distance between mines within the various fields would be 30-55 meters. It was planned to integrate the French-British minefields in the area Dover-Calais and Dunkirk into the total German mine planning. By Sept. 4th 6.800 mines (among them 800 fakes) and the necessary equipment had been made ready. Delivery to departure ports to be ready by Sept. 19th. The mining operation should take place in the period S-8 to S-2".

That clarifies the mineplan. I see I was wrong in interpreting the British Dover ASW minefield as C1a. And the coastal minebelts were British as well. At leastthat lowers the German requirement to say 25,000 mines for a single row, 50,000 for a double row....oh, wait, they only have 6,000 real mines available now? At least the 6 days to lay 6,000 mines at least appears feasible given their record. If they can take operations they spent four days on over the course of a month and manage to do them night after night for six days straight?

BTW, how do you "integrate" an enemy minefield that you only have a vague idea of its location, size, and density, into your own mine planning?

Looking in at Rohwer and Hümmelchen one can see that mining was going all the time, also before the period mentioned above:

http://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/seekrieg/40-09.htm

Yes, what can we see?

1.– 2.9.1940
Kanal
Der F.d.M. Kpt.z.S. Bentlage wirft mit den Minenschiffen Tannenberg, Roland und Cobra von Rotterdam aus in der südwestlichen Nordsee die offensive Minensperre »SW 3« mit ca. 600 Minen. Sicherung durch die 5. Z-Fl. (FKpt. F. Berger) mit den Zerstörern Erich Steinbrinck, Paul Jacobi und Karl Galster, der 2. T-Fl. (KKpt. Riede) mit T 8, T 5, T 6 und T 7 sowie der 5. T-Fl. (KKpt. Henne) mit Falke, Iltis, Jaguar und Greif.

Four minelayers to lay 600 mines, escorted by 3 destroyers and 8 torpedo boats. SW 3 appears to be about 30-40 kilometers long....so a density of 15-20 per kilometer in a single row? BTW, SW 1 and SW 2, laid on two nights a week apart in August, were similar in nature, 600 mines each laid by essentially the same force and escorts. So three 600-mine fields sown, over the course of three weeks, requiring four minelayers and 10 or so escorts each time.

1.– 30.9.1940
Gewässer um Großbritannien
Die dt. 9. Flieger-Division wirft Luftminen in der Themsemündung, in Scapa Flow, im Moray-Firth und vor Aberdeen, Newcastle und Middlesborough. Weitere Einsätze gegen andere brit. Häfen folgen. Verseuchung der Themsemündung am 14.9., 15.9., 17.9., 18.9., 23.9. und 30.9. Insgesamt werden im September 184 Luftminen abgeworfen. –– Durch Minentreffer verloren gehen gehen am 1.9. vor Penzance der Minensuchtrawler Royalo, am 9. und 12.9. vor dem Humber der Fischdampfer Dervish (346 BRT) bzw. der Tanker Gothic (2444 BRT) und am 22.9. vor Harwich der Minensuchtrawler Loch Inver (356 BRT).

So 184 mines....an average of a wopping 6 per day, which sank three trawlers and one tanker?

5.– 6.9.1940
Nordsee / Kanal
Dt. Minenschiffe, gesichert durch die 2. T-Flottille (KKpt. Riede) mit T 5, T 6, T 7 und T 8 führen in der Straße von Dover das Minenunternehmen »Walter« durch.

Kinda vague?

6.– 7.9.1940
Kanal
Offensives dt. Minenunternehmen SW.0 nördlich von Terschelling. Die Minenleger Togo (Kpt.z.S Böhmer) und Kaiser mit 405 EMB-Minen und die 5. T-Flottille (KKpt. Henne) mit Greif, Falke, Iltis und Jaguar mit 1000 Sprengbojen an Bord, werden von dem Zerstörer Karl Galster und der 1. T-Flottille (KKpt. von Rennenkampff) mit Kondor, T 1, T 2 und T 3 gesichert. Nach dem Werfen der Sperre kehrt der Verband nach Den Helder zurück.

So they got tired of fiddling arond and this time loaded up the escorts with mines. So two minelayers, 4 T-Boote as minelayers, and five escorts.

8.– 9.9.1940
Nordsee / Kanal
Offensive Minenunternehmung »Hannelore« der 2. T-Flottille (KKpt. Riede) mit T 5, T 6, T 7 und T 8 in der Straße von Dover.

Vague like WALTER again? Oh, wait, these have nothing to do with Seelöwe. THey must be practicing? Sonce it doesn't appear that these sank anything?

8.– 11.9.1940
Kanal
Verlegung dt. Minenlegerverbände für das Unternehmen »Seelöwe«. Am 8.9. laufen Schiff 23 / Stier (Kpt.z.S. Bentlage), Königin Luise, Schwerin, Preussen, Hansestadt Danzig und Grille, begleitet von 4 Torpedobooten, von dt. Nordseehäfen aus; am 9.9. vereinigen sie sich vor Rotterdam mit Tannenberg, Cobra, Kaiser, Roland, Togo und 2 Torpedobooten. Hansestadt Danzig und Kaiser laufen in Antwerpen ein. Grille, Königin Luise, Preussen und Roland werden beim Einlaufen in Ostende von Flugzeugen angegriffen, erleiden aber nur Splitterschäden. Die Westgruppe mit Schiff 23, Tannenberg, Cobra, Togo und Schwerin setzt die Fahrt am 10.9. von Calais aus fort, Sicherung übernehmen dazu die Zerstörer Hans Lody (Kpt.z.S. Bey), Karl Galster, Theodor Riedel, Friedrich Eckholdt und Friedrich Ihn, die am 9.9. aus Wilhelmshaven auslaufen. Sie erreichen am 11.9. Cherbourg.

Er, I don't know how to tell you this, but this isn't a minelaying sortie. These are movements of minelayers - again using heavy naval escort, from one port to another so they can actually prepare to lay Seelöwe minefields.

12.– 14.9.1940
Kanal
Weitere Minenleger, Stralsund (Kpt.z.S. Brinkmeier), Skagerrak und Brummer, verlegen unter Sicherung von 4 T-Booten von deutschen Häfen in den Westraum. Brummer geht nach Antwerpen, die zwei anderen nach Le Havre, nachdem sie vor Zeebrügge einen Luftangriff abgewehrt haben.

Er, sorry, these are more ship movements and not actual laying of mines? So now that's six days in which no one has actually laid a mine?

19.– 20.9.1940
Kanal
Der B.d.Z., Kpt.z.S. Bey, läuft mit den Zerstörern Hans Lody, Friedrich Eckholdt, Karl Galster, Theodor Riedel und Friedrich Ihn von Cherbourg zu einem Vorstoß in das Gebiet zwischen Lizard und Start Point aus, doch wegen der Wetterlage wird das Unternehmen abgeblasen. –– Die Minenleger der Westgruppe, Schiff 23, Tannenberg, Schwerin, Togo und Cobra, verlegen unter Sicherungsgeleit der 5. T-Flottille von Cherbourg nach St. Nazaire.

Er, again, this was an attempt cancelled due to the poor weather. It's now 12 days since they've laid a mine.

30.9.– 1.10.1940
Kanal
Offensive Minenunternehmung »Werner« der 5. T-Flottille (KKpt. Henne) mit Greif, Kondor, Falke und Seeadler vor Dover.

Ah, they're finally laying mines again....22 days after the last one. And curious, no actual minelayers are involved again. And this isn't one of the planned Seeöwe fields, it's another harassing field.

So five succesful minelaying forays in the course of 30 days? That managed to sow....how many? Let's be really, really generous and say:

1/2 Sep - 600
5/6 Sep - 600?
6/7 Sep - 1,405
8/9 Sep - 1,250? (I'm feeling really generous)
30 Sep/1 Oct - 1,000? (I'm feeling generous again)

Total 4,855?

[LWD]

They are also very likely to encounter British opposition ....

Sure, but if you read through Rohwer's of this period the KM minelaying operations met very little opposition from the RN. ....

I'll leave the veractiy of that for others to verify. However note that the mine laying effort required for Sea LIon as descrived in earlier in this thread is much bigger than any previous WWII efort by the Germans and at least a good protion is closer to the British and further from German bases than much of the previous efforts. Indeed laying a line of mines of the length specified is a non triveal task to accoplish quickly.

A small comment about underway replenshiment. Note that while this is happening all vessels involved are signficantly more vulnerable than they normally are. It's even worse if they are stopped.

[Andreas]

They are also very likely to encounter British opposition ....

Sure, but if you read through Rohwer's of this period the KM minelaying operations met very little opposition from the RN. ....

I'll leave the veractiy of that for others to verify.

That has already been done by Rich, and further shatters any credibility that leandros' quotes from German literature on the matter of Sealion may have had. Rich is fully correct that leandros misquoted a number of entries from Seekrieg as mining activity that were indeed no mining activity at all. That raises the question about leandros ability to understand written German, or to read closely what is written in front of him, and whether he is able or willing to read closely and report what he read in his German language sources correctly in this forum. Based on the evidence of his mining activity post, it appears the answers to these two questions are respectively: 'not very well', and/or 'no'. Out of nine examples leandros brought up to demonstrate that mining was going on all the time, three were not mining activity at all.

All the best

Andreas

[LWD]

Some veryinteresting info posted on:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=121586
Relevant to the topic of mine fields is the statment:

Every 8 to 14 days the mines would break away from thier moorings

So if you start laying mines 6 or 7 days before Sea Lion the barrier will start deteriating on its own a day or two after the invasion. You then not only need to replace the mines but have the drifting ones now floating through your log corridores.

[RichTO90]

So if you start laying mines 6 or 7 days before Sea Lion the barrier will start deteriating on its own a day or two after the invasion. You then not only need to replace the mines but have the drifting ones now floating through your log corridores.

Yes, I think I also mentioned that as a potential problem as it was throughout the war for most navies. Mines are indiscriminant and are prone to losing their moorings completely or simply shifting on the seabed. Minefields also needed to be correctly plotted, which subjects them to errors in navigation. A number of ship losses may be directly attributed to 'friendly fire' when ships wandered into friendly minefields that were incorrectly plotted or ran into a friendly floater that was out of possition or drifting.

[LWD]

I think you did bring it up. What surprised me though was the short period before it starts becoming a real problem.

As far as mapping goes I would also imagine that the Germans would have a real problem with their longer lines. If they try laying them in segments thier could easily be gaps and or they could loose mine layres laying one segment to mines layed in a previous segment. If they go out as a group and try to lay the mines in one more or less continuous line then they are almost sure to be spotted by the British as it is going to take them more than a night to lay the line.

[Walter_Warlimont]

I think you did bring it up. What surprised me though was the short period before it starts becoming a real problem.

As far as mapping goes I would also imagine that the Germans would have a real problem with their longer lines. If they try laying them in segments thier could easily be gaps and or they could loose mine layres laying one segment to mines layed in a previous segment. If they go out as a group and try to lay the mines in one more or less continuous line then they are almost sure to be spotted by the British as it is going to take them more than a night to lay the line.

I guess it is an idiotic idea to lay your mines as you cross the channel with your invasion fleet?

Deterioration starting 8 to 10 days later would not really be a problem then, because by that time, the 2nd wave will have arrived.

Theoretically of course.

And before that happens the Minesweepers & Minelayers working together could hold the mine barriers together.

Couldn't they?

[John T]

Some veryinteresting info posted on:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=121586
Relevant to the topic of mine fields is the statment:

Every 8 to 14 days the mines would break away from thier moorings

So if you start laying mines 6 or 7 days before Sea Lion the barrier will start deteriating on its own a day or two after the invasion. You then not only need to replace the mines but have the drifting ones now floating through your log corridores.

LWD you understands that the reference to "the mines " does not mean that you have to replace the minefield but that some mines started to drift away.
Most minefield sown in 1940 where a theat to shipping years after the war.


Cheers
/John T.

[RichTO90]

I guess it is an idiotic idea to lay your mines as you cross the channel with your invasion fleet?

Deterioration starting 8 to 10 days later would not really be a problem then, because by that time, the 2nd wave will have arrived.

Theoretically of course.

And before that happens the Minesweepers & Minelayers working together could hold the mine barreirs together.

Couldn't they?

No, it isn't idiotic in theory, but given their minelaying capability it was impractical. Minelaying was slow, tedious, nervewracking work as a rule, since it was important to maintain an accurate course and to maintain accurate navigational fixes since a minefield that wasn't where it was supposed to be could be as deadly to the people who laid it as it was to the enemy....even not counting any that broke loose.

And the minefield idea remains a chimera, except for the Dover ASW barrage they were never really more than a harassment and the British had already expended great energy into deploying a large countermine force to minimize even the harrassing capabilities of the minefields....and they knew very accurate the position of the Dover fields (although were themselves subject to 'floaters' ISTR at least one of their losses in September was to one of their own). Given that the actual plan was to lay 6,000 real mines, the actual density over about 250 kilometers of barriers was 24 per kilometer, about one every 42 meters.

And the problem remains that just a couple handfulls of S-Boote, the minelayers themselves, and possibly a handful of U-Boote was all that prevented the British mineclearing and fleet assets from sailing through the eastern approaches to the Channel.

[fredleander]

Given that the actual plan was to lay 6,000 real mines, the actual density over about 250 kilometers of barriers was 24 per kilometer, about one every 42 meters.

As I understand it the more than 6.000 mines which were mentioned by me were those meant to be laid S-8 to S-2. Mining was going on all the time before that. Ref. Rohwer.

[Andreas]

Given that the actual plan was to lay 6,000 real mines, the actual density over about 250 kilometers of barriers was 24 per kilometer, about one every 42 meters.

As I understand it the more than 6.000 mines which were mentioned by me were those meant to be laid S-8 to S-2. Mining was going on all the time before that. Ref. Rohwer.

Well no, it was not. Rich has pointed out that the actual activity was not particularly impressive. Also, if this plan was to work, the invasion would not have started until the 25th, assuming good weather inbetween? Assuming if on the 17th the order had been given, the invasion could not have had the planned mine cover before the 25th? Or was the schedule flexible?

All the best

Andreas

[fredleander]

Given that the actual plan was to lay 6,000 real mines, the actual density over about 250 kilometers of barriers was 24 per kilometer, about one every 42 meters.

As I understand it the more than 6.000 mines which were mentioned by me were those meant to be laid S-8 to S-2. Mining was going on all the time before that. Ref. Rohwer.

Well no, it was not. Rich has pointed out that the actual activity was not particularly impressive.

Rich is free to have his own opinons on what is impressive or not.

Rohwer give these inputs on pre-Seelöwe mining:

1.– 31.8.1940
Luftkrieg England
Luftmineneinsätze der 9. Fl.-Div. in den Gewässern um England. Ziele sind u.a. Gebiete von: Sunderland, Plymouth, Liverpool, Themse, Penzance, Southampton, Falmouth, Humber, Fowey, Belfast, Newcastle, Middlesborough, Hartlepool, Downs, Scapa Flow, Dundee. Insgesamt werden 386 Minen abgeworfen, darunter erstmals am 28.8. vom Typ FAB-III mit Geräuschzündung.

7.– 8.8.1940
Nordsee
Die Minenschiffe Roland (FKpt. von Kutzleben), Cobra (KKpt. d. Res. Brill) und Brummer (KKpt. Koppe) unter Führung des F.d.V. West, Kpt.z.S. Schiller, werfen in der südwestlichen Nordsee die offensive Minensperre »SW 1« mit ca. 600 Minen. Sicherung durch die 5. T-Flottille (KKpt. Henne) mit Falke, Kondor, Jaguar, T 2, T 7 und T 8. Auf die Sperre geraten am 31.8. drei Zerstörer der 20. brit. Z-Flottille

14.– 15.8.1940
Kanal
Die Minenschiffe Tannenberg (FKpt. von Schönermark), Roland und Cobra unter Führung des Chefs des Stabes des Befehlshabers der Sicherung der Nordsee, Kpt.z.S. Böhmer, werfen in der südwestlichen Nordsee die offensive Minensperre »SW 2« mit ca. 600 Minen. Sicherung durch die 5. T-Flottille (KKpt. Henne) mit Greif, Kondor, Falke, Iltis, Jaguar, T 2 und T 3. Die Zerstörer Paul Jacobi und Karl Galster legen Minen.

25./26.8.1940
Kanal
Die 1. S-Flottille (Kptlt. Birnbacher mit S 27, S 21, S 18, S 20, S 25 und S 26) wirft 16 Minen vor der Hafeneinfahrt Portsmouth.

31.8./1.9.1940
Nordsee
Die 20. brit. Zerstörerflottille läuft mit Ivanhoe, Intrepid, Icarus, Esk und Express aus, um nordwest. von Texel die Minensperre CBX.5 auszubringen. Nach Luftaufklärundsmeldungen werden die Zerstörer Jupiter (Capt. Lord Louis Mountbatten), Jackal, Kelvin und Vortigern zur Verstärkung befohlen. Bei dem Versuch, deutsche Schiffe abzufangen, läuft Express auf eine Mine der kürzlich ausgelegten dt. Sperre »SW 1« (siehe 7./8.8.), anschließend auch die zur Hilfe eilenden Esk und Ivanhoe. Die Esk sinkt. Während Vortigern am Ausgang D der brit. Minenfelder wartet, suchen Jupiter und Kelvin nach den zwei beschädigten Zerstörern. Kelvin nimmt Express bis zum Eintreffen von Schleppern an den Haken. Der Zerstörer Garth findet die Ivanhoe, die zusätzlich von einem dt. Wasserflugzeug angegriffen und beschädigt wird. Da Abschleppversuche der beschädigten Ivanhoe zu gefährlich sind, versenkt Kelvin den Zerstörer mit einem Torpedo.

1.– 2.9.1940
Kanal
Der F.d.M. Kpt.z.S. Bentlage wirft mit den Minenschiffen Tannenberg, Roland und Cobra von Rotterdam aus in der südwestlichen Nordsee die offensive Minensperre »SW 3« mit ca. 600 Minen. Sicherung durch die 5. Z-Fl. (FKpt. F. Berger) mit den Zerstörern Erich Steinbrinck, Paul Jacobi und Karl Galster, der 2. T-Fl. (KKpt. Riede) mit T 8, T 5, T 6 und T 7 sowie der 5. T-Fl. (KKpt. Henne) mit Falke, Iltis, Jaguar und Greif.

5.– 6.9.1940
Nordsee / Kanal
Dt. Minenschiffe, gesichert durch die 2. T-Flottille (KKpt. Riede) mit T 5, T 6, T 7 und T 8 führen in der Straße von Dover das Minenunternehmen »Walter« durch.

6.– 7.9.1940
Kanal
Offensives dt. Minenunternehmen SW.0 nördlich von Terschelling. Die Minenleger Togo (Kpt.z.S Böhmer) und Kaiser mit 405 EMB-Minen und die 5. T-Flottille (KKpt. Henne) mit Greif, Falke, Iltis und Jaguar mit 1000 Sprengbojen an Bord, werden von dem Zerstörer Karl Galster und der 1. T-Flottille (KKpt. von Rennenkampff) mit Kondor, T 1, T 2 und T 3 gesichert. Nach dem Werfen der Sperre kehrt der Verband nach Den Helder zurück.

8.– 9.9.1940
Nordsee / Kanal
Offensive Minenunternehmung »Hannelore« der 2. T-Flottille (KKpt. Riede) mit T 5, T 6, T 7 und T 8 in der Straße von Dover.

8.– 11.9.1940
Kanal
Verlegung dt. Minenlegerverbände für das Unternehmen »Seelöwe«. Am 8.9. laufen Schiff 23 / Stier (Kpt.z.S. Bentlage), Königin Luise, Schwerin, Preussen, Hansestadt Danzig und Grille, begleitet von 4 Torpedobooten, von dt. Nordseehäfen aus; am 9.9. vereinigen sie sich vor Rotterdam mit Tannenberg, Cobra, Kaiser, Roland, Togo und 2 Torpedobooten. Hansestadt Danzig und Kaiser laufen in Antwerpen ein. Grille, Königin Luise, Preussen und Roland werden beim Einlaufen in Ostende von Flugzeugen angegriffen, erleiden aber nur Splitterschäden. Die Westgruppe mit Schiff 23, Tannenberg, Cobra, Togo und Schwerin setzt die Fahrt am 10.9. von Calais aus fort, Sicherung übernehmen dazu die Zerstörer Hans Lody (Kpt.z.S. Bey), Karl Galster, Theodor Riedel, Friedrich Eckholdt und Friedrich Ihn, die am 9.9. aus Wilhelmshaven auslaufen. Sie erreichen am 11.9. Cherbourg.

12.– 14.9.1940
Kanal
Weitere Minenleger, Stralsund (Kpt.z.S. Brinkmeier), Skagerrak und Brummer, verlegen unter Sicherung von 4 T-Booten von deutschen Häfen in den Westraum. Brummer geht nach Antwerpen, die zwei anderen nach Le Havre, nachdem sie vor Zeebrügge einen Luftangriff abgewehrt haben.

15.– 16.9.1940
Kanal
Minenunternehmung »Bernhard« der 2. T-Flottille mit T 5, T 6, T 7 und T 8 in der Straße von Dover.

19.– 20.9.1940
Kanal
Die Minenleger der Westgruppe, Schiff 23, Tannenberg, Schwerin, Togo und Cobra, verlegen unter Sicherungsgeleit der 5. T-Flottille von Cherbourg nach St. Nazaire.

28.– 29.9.1940
Kanal
Minenunternehmung des F.d.Z. (Kpt.z.S. Bey) mit den Zerstörern Hans Lody, Karl Galster, Erich Steinbrinck, Friedrich Ihn, Paul Jacobi in der Bucht von Falmouth. Deckungsgruppe: Friedrich Eckoldt und Theodor Riedel. Erfolge: am 30.9. brit. Yacht Sappho (387 BRT), am 3.10. brit. Dampfer Lady of the Isles (166 BRT), am 6.10. brit. Dampfer Jersey Queen (910 BRT), am 6.11. brit. Trawler Sevra (253 BRT) sowie am 8.11. brit. Trawler Anz (221 BRT) versenkt. — Die Minenleger Stralsund und Skagerrak verlegen, gesichert durch das T-Boot Wolf, von Le Havre nach Brest.

30.9.– 1.10.1940
Kanal
Offensive Minenunternehmung »Werner« der 5. T-Flottille (KKpt. Henne) mit Greif, Kondor, Falke und Seeadler vor Dover.

Also, if this plan was to work, the invasion would not have started until the 25th, assuming good weather inbetween? Assuming if on the 17th the order had been given, the invasion could not have had the planned mine cover before the 25th? Or was the schedule flexible?

What governed S-day was the 10-day implicit warning period. If a go-ahead had been given on the 17th S-day would have been the 27th. If it had been given on the 15th (When the KM advertised that they should have it all ready by the 21st) S-day would have been the 25th. After that S-3 would have been the last day to cancel it. This is one of the reasons why the German dispositions in September cannot be taken as final. They "always" had 10 days to stitch things up. This might also be why weather is never brought up in the German planning. This would have to be considered/followed up when a go-ahead had been given.

[Andreas]

leandros

This has been addressed by Rich before, are you incapable or unwilling to read what others wrote? Are you incapable of reading German or are you somehow expecting that others are unwilling or unable to read it so that you can get away with this nonsense?

Rohwer give these inputs on pre-Seelöwe mining:

31.8./1.9.1940
Nordsee
Die 20. brit. Zerstörerflottille läuft mit Ivanhoe, Intrepid, Icarus, Esk und Express aus, um nordwest. von Texel die Minensperre CBX.5 auszubringen. Nach Luftaufklärundsmeldungen werden die Zerstörer Jupiter (Capt. Lord Louis Mountbatten), Jackal, Kelvin und Vortigern zur Verstärkung befohlen. Bei dem Versuch, deutsche Schiffe abzufangen, läuft Express auf eine Mine der kürzlich ausgelegten dt. Sperre »SW 1« (siehe 7./8.8.), anschließend auch die zur Hilfe eilenden Esk und Ivanhoe. Die Esk sinkt. Während Vortigern am Ausgang D der brit. Minenfelder wartet, suchen Jupiter und Kelvin nach den zwei beschädigten Zerstörern. Kelvin nimmt Express bis zum Eintreffen von Schleppern an den Haken. Der Zerstörer Garth findet die Ivanhoe, die zusätzlich von einem dt. Wasserflugzeug angegriffen und beschädigt wird. Da Abschleppversuche der beschädigten Ivanhoe zu gefährlich sind, versenkt Kelvin den Zerstörer mit einem Torpedo.

8.– 11.9.1940
Kanal
Verlegung dt. Minenlegerverbände für das Unternehmen »Seelöwe«. Am 8.9. laufen Schiff 23 / Stier (Kpt.z.S. Bentlage), Königin Luise, Schwerin, Preussen, Hansestadt Danzig und Grille, begleitet von 4 Torpedobooten, von dt. Nordseehäfen aus; am 9.9. vereinigen sie sich vor Rotterdam mit Tannenberg, Cobra, Kaiser, Roland, Togo und 2 Torpedobooten. Hansestadt Danzig und Kaiser laufen in Antwerpen ein. Grille, Königin Luise, Preussen und Roland werden beim Einlaufen in Ostende von Flugzeugen angegriffen, erleiden aber nur Splitterschäden. Die Westgruppe mit Schiff 23, Tannenberg, Cobra, Togo und Schwerin setzt die Fahrt am 10.9. von Calais aus fort, Sicherung übernehmen dazu die Zerstörer Hans Lody (Kpt.z.S. Bey), Karl Galster, Theodor Riedel, Friedrich Eckholdt und Friedrich Ihn, die am 9.9. aus Wilhelmshaven auslaufen. Sie erreichen am 11.9. Cherbourg.

12.– 14.9.1940
Kanal
Weitere Minenleger, Stralsund (Kpt.z.S. Brinkmeier), Skagerrak und Brummer, verlegen unter Sicherung von 4 T-Booten von deutschen Häfen in den Westraum. Brummer geht nach Antwerpen, die zwei anderen nach Le Havre, nachdem sie vor Zeebrügge einen Luftangriff abgewehrt haben.

19.– 20.9.1940
Kanal
Die Minenleger der Westgruppe, Schiff 23, Tannenberg, Schwerin, Togo und Cobra, verlegen unter Sicherungsgeleit der 5. T-Flottille von Cherbourg nach St. Nazaire.

Not one of the examples above is about German mining activity. The first is about British ships running on a German minefield. The other three are German mining ships displacing.

Rich told you so before. How many more times are you to falsely claim these entries as examples for mining activity?

All the best

Andreas

[RichTO90]

[As I understand it the more than 6.000 mines which were mentioned by me were those meant to be laid S-8 to S-2. Mining was going on all the time before that. Ref. Rohwer.

[Rohwer give these inputs on pre-Seelöwe mining:

Here we go again.

1.– 31.8.1940
Luftkrieg England
Luftmineneinsätze der 9. Fl.-Div. in den Gewässern um England. Ziele sind u.a. Gebiete von: Sunderland, Plymouth, Liverpool, Themse, Penzance, Southampton, Falmouth, Humber, Fowey, Belfast, Newcastle, Middlesborough, Hartlepool, Downs, Scapa Flow, Dundee. Insgesamt werden 386 Minen abgeworfen, darunter erstmals am 28.8. vom Typ FAB-III mit Geräuschzündung.

Air-deployed seamines were ineffective, except as harrassment. They were not included as part of the Seelöwe minefields and due to the inherent inaccuracy of locating them they had to have necessity be kept well away from any of the possible areas where German vessels might operate.

7.– 8.8.1940
Nordsee
Die Minenschiffe Roland (FKpt. von Kutzleben), Cobra (KKpt. d. Res. Brill) und Brummer (KKpt. Koppe) unter Führung des F.d.V. West, Kpt.z.S. Schiller, werfen in der südwestlichen Nordsee die offensive Minensperre »SW 1« mit ca. 600 Minen. Sicherung durch die 5. T-Flottille (KKpt. Henne) mit Falke, Kondor, Jaguar, T 2, T 7 und T 8. Auf die Sperre geraten am 31.8. drei Zerstörer der 20. brit. Z-Flottille

I already mentioned this in passing. 600 mines, 2 minelayers, escorted by 6 T-Boote.

14.– 15.8.1940
Kanal
Die Minenschiffe Tannenberg (FKpt. von Schönermark), Roland und Cobra unter Führung des Chefs des Stabes des Befehlshabers der Sicherung der Nordsee, Kpt.z.S. Böhmer, werfen in der südwestlichen Nordsee die offensive Minensperre »SW 2« mit ca. 600 Minen. Sicherung durch die 5. T-Flottille (KKpt. Henne) mit Greif, Kondor, Falke, Iltis, Jaguar, T 2 und T 3. Die Zerstörer Paul Jacobi und Karl Galster legen Minen.

And this one. Six days later, 3 minelayers and 2 DD laying mines, escorted by 7 T-Boote. 600 mines again. Like the other SW fields it wasn't meant to be part of Seelöwe and ould have absolutely no effect on British vessels sailing from the north and east coast of Scotland nd England to Dover.

25./26.8.1940
Kanal
Die 1. S-Flottille (Kptlt. Birnbacher mit S 27, S 21, S 18, S 20, S 25 und S 26) wirft 16 Minen vor der Hafeneinfahrt Portsmouth.

Eleven days later, 6 S-Boote lay....16 mines. Wow.

31.8./1.9.1940

This is the sole major effect of the August operations, it is not a minelaying operation and I already addressed it....weeks ago.

So August, three operations, 1,216 mines. An average of one operation every 10 days, laying 405 mines or just over 39 per day. At least September was an improvement.

(snip what we already have covered, leandros appears to think that sheer repetition can bolster faulty arguments)

So with 6,000 mines to lay, using the August averages that is a minimum of 857 per day, more than 20 times the August daily average. Even using the September average of 162 per day it would take 37 days to complete. Of course you could assume that they could do the 1,200 maximum in a single mission they accomplished in September over the course of 5 days, but I rather suspect that might be difficult.

[RichTO90]

Actually Andreas, Rich did point out that a few of the entires in those logs posted by Leandros did very well have to do with the mining of the channel.

But I guess YOU failed to read those parts, didn't you?

Actually WW, no, I posted which had to do with actual minelaying operations and which did not. That was to clarify the exact meaning of the post to the unsuspecting reader of the post. The implication is that unless the Germans could maintain the highest level of minelaying activity round-the-clock, for 5 days, in a 7-day window when the laying was scheduled to be done, then the minelaying wwould at best be incomplete. And this is of course assuming that poor weather doesn't intervene and the British do not either attempt to interupt the laying and do not attempt to do any mineclearing of their own.

Was I unclear on that?