Seelöwe - German & British mining operations

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Knouterer
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Re: Seelöwe - German & British mining operations

#151

Post by Knouterer » 17 Mar 2015, 11:06

The point about the floaters is that they were not necessarily from any minefields laid just a few days before, as certain posters appear to believe - they might have broken loose weeks or months ago and they might have come from just about anywhere. For all we know, in the Channel such floaters might stay around for a (very) long time, moving back and forth with the tides and currents.
According to Peter Elliot, Allied Minesweeping in WW2, p. 24: "Floating mines could be found far out into the North Atlantic and drifted right across the Pacific to the western coast of the United States."

So there's nothing much the Kriegsmarine could have done to "minimise the problem" as suggested above.

(And yes, I know the western coast of the United States is not the Channel, no need to point that out)
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Knouterer
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Re: Seelöwe - German & British mining operations

#152

Post by Knouterer » 17 Mar 2015, 11:37

From a BBC "WW2 People's War" interview with somebody who as a boy escaped from France (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peoples ... 9986.shtml ):

"We sailed from Dunkirk on the 21st May, 1940 at around 3 to 4pm, skirting the French coast towards Calais which we found to be burning furiously. We then set out for the open sea following a mine free channel. We did come across two or three floating mines and these were exploded by a marksman from our ship."
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phylo_roadking
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Re: Seelöwe - German & British mining operations

#153

Post by phylo_roadking » 21 Mar 2015, 02:01

Knouterer wrote:The point about the floaters is that they were not necessarily from any minefields laid just a few days before, as certain posters appear to believe - they might have broken loose weeks or months ago and they might have come from just about anywhere. For all we know, in the Channel such floaters might stay around for a (very) long time, moving back and forth with the tides and currents.
According to Peter Elliot, Allied Minesweeping in WW2, p. 24: "Floating mines could be found far out into the North Atlantic and drifted right across the Pacific to the western coast of the United States."

So there's nothing much the Kriegsmarine could have done to "minimise the problem" as suggested above.
A total misrepresentation....not to say misunderstanding...of the point; if mines are not there they can't break free. Therefore, laying them at the closest possible time to S-Day reduces the amount of time available for said mines to break free.

Of course they would continue to break free during and after the invasion - no one has said they wouldn't - but if x-number a day on average break free, you can reduce the number doing so before S-Day by reducing the number of days they're actually in the water beforehand.

They don't break free and float down into the mapped invasion channels when they sitting in railcars in France...
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John T
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Re: Seelöwe - German & British mining operations

#154

Post by John T » 21 Mar 2015, 11:08

Knouterer wrote:The point about the floaters is that they were not necessarily from any minefields laid just a few days before, as certain posters appear to believe - they might have broken loose weeks or months ago and they might have come from just about anywhere.

As you say, random floating mines could be found at almost any time,
it was less than ten years ago the last mine where found on the Swedish West coast.

But the mines did not break free by design, but by mechanical failures.
And to my undertanding, a sigificant part of the failures happend at laying,
thereafter the mines where floating in a fairly stable environment until the next storm, when some more would break loose.
Ofcourse some mines would randomly break loose at any time but the probablity was low.

Cheers
/John.

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Urmel
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Re: Seelöwe - German & British mining operations

#155

Post by Urmel » 21 Mar 2015, 13:02

phylo_roadking wrote:
Knouterer wrote:The point about the floaters is that they were not necessarily from any minefields laid just a few days before, as certain posters appear to believe - they might have broken loose weeks or months ago and they might have come from just about anywhere. For all we know, in the Channel such floaters might stay around for a (very) long time, moving back and forth with the tides and currents.
According to Peter Elliot, Allied Minesweeping in WW2, p. 24: "Floating mines could be found far out into the North Atlantic and drifted right across the Pacific to the western coast of the United States."

So there's nothing much the Kriegsmarine could have done to "minimise the problem" as suggested above.
A total misrepresentation....not to say misunderstanding...of the point; if mines are not there they can't break free. Therefore, laying them at the closest possible time to S-Day reduces the amount of time available for said mines to break free.

Of course they would continue to break free during and after the invasion - no one has said they wouldn't - but if x-number a day on average break free, you can reduce the number doing so before S-Day by reducing the number of days they're actually in the water beforehand.

They don't break free and float down into the mapped invasion channels when they sitting in railcars in France...
Err, what about floaters from the extensive minefields already laid?
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phylo_roadking
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Re: Seelöwe - German & British mining operations

#156

Post by phylo_roadking » 21 Mar 2015, 20:32

Err, what about floaters from the extensive minefields already laid?
John T wrote:As you say, random floating mines could be found at almost any time,
it was less than ten years ago the last mine where found on the Swedish West coast.

But the mines did not break free by design, but by mechanical failures.
And to my undertanding, a sigificant part of the failures happend at laying,
thereafter the mines where floating in a fairly stable environment until the next storm, when some more would break loose.
Of course some mines would randomly break loose at any time but the probablity was low
.

Cheers
/John.
And of course - Sealion isn't going to be launched if there's anything like that on the weather horizon anyway....or at least as far as the Germans could forecast.

But as has been discussed before, the Germans knew there was a problem with mines breaking free, including their own. They were obviously prepared to accept the average number of floaters...given that they still ran coastal convoys through potentially affected waters, chains of barges, nighttime e-boat sorties etc...
So there's nothing much the Kriegsmarine could have done to "minimise the problem" as suggested above.
Also, as well as being obviously prepared to accept the average number of break-frees and floaters, there's something about the German plans for laying their minefields for Sealion that no one seems to have noticed... :wink:
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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Seelöwe - German & British mining operations

#157

Post by Juha Tompuri » 21 Mar 2015, 21:38

phylo_roadking wrote: there's something about the German plans for laying their minefields for Sealion that no one seems to have noticed
When/if you or someone else notices it, please post it here.
"Information not shared, is lost", as it is used to say.

Regards, Juha

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Seelöwe - German & British mining operations

#158

Post by phylo_roadking » 21 Mar 2015, 22:29

Juha Tompuri wrote:
phylo_roadking wrote: there's something about the German plans for laying their minefields for Sealion that no one seems to have noticed
When/if you or someone else notices it, please post it here.
"Information not shared, is lost", as it is used to say.

Regards, Juha
It's not lost, it's on page 333 of Peter Schenk's book...for those who grasp what the table is telling them...
So there's nothing much the Kriegsmarine could have done to "minimise the problem" as suggested above.
....as one thing the Kriegsmarine most definitely could consider doing was - schedule the minelayings they planned so that the up-Channel ones were laid as close to S-Day as practical, reducing further the number of breakaways and floaters from the "new" fields that have time to break free and come down the Channel into the invasion routes.

Fields D2/D1 were to be laid down-Channel on S -9, fields A2/A1 on S -8...

But the first up-Channel field above the Narrows, C2, wasn't to be laid until S -6...with no more laid above the Narrows until field C3 on S -4. Followed by another two-day gap until fields C1/C1A on S -2.

In other words - up-Channel of the invasion routes, the 400 mines of field C2 would only be in the water for six days before S-Day...followed by the 400 mines of field C3 which would only be in the water for four days before S-Day...while the 495 (total) mines of fields C1 and C1A would only be in the water for two days before S-Day.

So - not only a very narrow time window for a daily average of break-frees and floaters to threaten the invasion routes...a very narrow time window for bad weather to occur and cause greater than average break-frees and floaters.
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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Seelöwe - German & British mining operations

#159

Post by Juha Tompuri » 21 Mar 2015, 22:51

phylo_roadking wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote:
phylo_roadking wrote: there's something about the German plans for laying their minefields for Sealion that no one seems to have noticed
When/if you or someone else notices it, please post it here.
"Information not shared, is lost", as it is used to say.

Regards, Juha
It's not lost, it's on page 333 of Peter Schenk's book...for those who grasp what the table is telling them...
"Lost" for those who do not have access to that book/page.
And "lost", if someone who has knowledge about the alleged something about the German plans for laying their minefields for Sealion that no one seems to have noticed, and not shares it.

Regards, Juha

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Seelöwe - German & British mining operations

#160

Post by phylo_roadking » 21 Mar 2015, 22:52

And "lost", if someone who has knowledge about the alleged something about the German plans for laying their minefields for Sealion that no one seems to have noticed, and not shares it.
Which is why indeed I went on to share it in detail.

Unfortunately, we'll now never know if it happened to escape any other other contributors to this thread.

Just to recapitulate - no one has ever said that the Germans could reduce the problem of floaters to zero. But they were aware of the problem...and whether intentional or not...their scheduling of minelayings was going to work to minimise the number of break-frees and floaters that on average could come down into the Channel Narrows through S -1.

One interesting aspect of the "invasion summer" of 1940 was that residents on the English coast were VERY aware of frequent loud explosions and reports and put them down to floating mines - see "The Real Home Guard" (not the Norman Longmate book, but the diaries of Col (Indian Army, rtd.) Rodney Foster. By day and by night. So close or distant explosions wasn't necessarily going to cause any undue alarm onshore...
Last edited by phylo_roadking on 21 Mar 2015, 23:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Seelöwe - German & British mining operations

#161

Post by Juha Tompuri » 21 Mar 2015, 23:11

phylo_roadking wrote:
And "lost", if someone who has knowledge about the alleged something about the German plans for laying their minefields for Sealion that no one seems to have noticed, and not shares it.
Which is why indeed I went on to share it in detail.
but you just mentioned no-one had noticed?
phylo_roadking wrote:there's something about the German plans for laying their minefields for Sealion that no one seems to have noticed...

Anyway, about sharing in detail, you have mentoned about a table:
It's not lost, it's on page 333 of Peter Schenk's book...for those who grasp what the table is telling them...
Could you post it, so that we could try to grasp what it would tell to us?

Regards, Juha

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Seelöwe - German & British mining operations

#162

Post by phylo_roadking » 21 Mar 2015, 23:30

but you just mentioned no-one had noticed?
No, I said that no one seemed to have noticed. As no one had passed comment on it previously.

Anyway, about sharing in detail, you have mentoned about a table:
...
Could you post it, so that we could try to grasp what it would tell to us?
If I could scan it I would most certainly post it here.
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Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Seelöwe - German & British mining operations

#163

Post by Juha Tompuri » 21 Mar 2015, 23:40

phylo_roadking wrote:
but you just mentioned no-one had noticed?
No, I said that no one seemed to have noticed.
No-one or no-one else?

phylo_roadking wrote:
Juha wrote:Anyway, about sharing in detail, you have mentoned about a table:
...
Could you post it, so that we could try to grasp what it would tell to us?
If I could scan it I would most certainly post it here.
Thanks for sharing that information.

Regards, Juha

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Seelöwe - German & British mining operations

#164

Post by phylo_roadking » 21 Mar 2015, 23:47

...but as I can't scan it, we'll have to do with a scan previously posted some years ago now on Armchair general...

Image
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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Seelöwe - German & British mining operations

#165

Post by Juha Tompuri » 21 Mar 2015, 23:52

phylo_roadking wrote:but as I can't scan it, we'll have to do with a scan previously posted some years ago now on Armchair general
Thank you for revealing that.

Regards, Juha
Last edited by Juha Tompuri on 22 Mar 2015, 00:46, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: correcting

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