The destruction of Dutch and Belgian armies 1940

[Kelvin]

In May 1940, Hitler invaded and occupied the Low Countries. Anyone have detail on casualties of Dutch and Belgian armies, including killed, wounded and capture.

Some world war book factbook said Dutch armies had 300,000 men on the eve of war but I see some AHF said just 30,000 men, so how many were they and how many were captured by German ?

[daveh]

Any attempt to discover the exact numbers of casualties for the Dutch and Belgian armed forces during their campaigns of May 1940 seems fraught with difficulties and disagreements.

The site
http://www.waroverholland.nl/
gives Dutch army [including airforce and navy] losses at 2,332 men killed in action and more than 10,000 men wounded. POW numbers are extremely hard to determine as in the end the entire armed forces (in the Netherlands) escaped or surrendered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_ ... al_Belgium gives
The Netherlands - 9,779 killed or wounded
Belgium - 23,350 killed or wounded
though with no source...


For the Belgian armed forces there is no corresponding site to waroverholland. Numbers vary from c 6,000 killed, as given on waroverholland and on http://users.telenet.be/ABL1914/BWG/bwg4045.htm which aims to list all known war graves for the Belgians in May 1940 to as high as 9096 killed (http://www.worldwar-2.net/casualties/wo ... -index.htm) and KIA: 8,098 plus MIA: 501 from
The Oxford Companion To World War II, by I.C.B. Dear, M.R.D. Foot, 2001

The number of wounded is very rarely given though I have seen a figure of 16,000 it was unclear exactly what this referred to, i.e. was it casualties just in the 18 day campaign or did it include casualties suffered by Belgians fighting in the resistance and /or with the Germans?

Again given the surrender of the whole armed forces it appears difficult to differentiate those POWS taken during the campaign. Having said that I have seen quoted a figure of 50,000 captured during the 18 day campaign most being captured from the 7th I.D. at the Albert canal, the 14 th I.D. at Lummen and during the fight on the R.Lys
(see http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campagne_des_18_jours)

http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.php? ... _5_15.html mentions a strength of 300,000 for the dutch army

[thom]

According to their 10-days reports, the German army captured 284,754 Belgian and 265,706 Dutch POWs in the period from 10/5 - 10/7/40. Many of them were released quickly so that a later "adjusted" report states 217,407 Belgian and 22,134 Dutch POWs for the period from 1/9/39 - 21/6/41.

[Kelvin]

According to their 10-days reports, the German army captured 284,754 Belgian and 265,706 Dutch POWs in the period from 10/5 - 10/7/40. Many of them were released quickly so that a later "adjusted" report states 217,407 Belgian and 22,134 Dutch POWs for the period from 1/9/39 - 21/6/41.

Hi Thorn, 10 days report 10/5 - 10/7 40 is two month ? what kind of ten days report mean ? You seem like a expert on Western campaign. I have some question on how many French was taken : some sources said 1.54 million were taken and some said 1.9 million were taken, which one was true ? Only 40,000 British soldiers and less than 1,000 Danes were taken , true also ? Thank

[thom]

Thanks Kelvin but I'm certainly not an expert on the Western campaign. I just happen to have some POW figures from German documents. These 10-days reports were drawn up by the Wehrmacht on items such as losses, consumption, inventory, and also contained a section on POWs. The data I provided in my previous post stems from the report of 1/7 to 10/7/40, which gives a summary for the period from 10/5 to 10/7/40. Apart from Belgian and Dutch POWs, the following figures were given in this report: 1,790,415 French, 20,120 British, 23,899 "Colored", 405 Polish, 71 Spanish, and 99,872 POWs of unknown nationality, altogether (including Belgian and Dutch) 2,485,242 POWs taken by the German army. Danes are not mentioned in the report. If we assume that most of the POWs of unknown nationality were French, and if we add "Colored", ie Africans who fought in the French army, to the figure of French POWs we come up with a total of 1.9 million. In the later report that gives adjusted figures (ie excluding those who were released immediately), the total is 1,417,598 French POWs for the period from 1/9/39 to 21/6/41.

[Andy H]

John Ellis in his World War II Databook Pg255 states the following figures

Dutch
2890 Killed & Missing
6.900 Wounded
? POW

Belgians
7500 Killed & Missing
15,850 Wounded
c 200,000 POW

and British stated as
11,010 Killed & Missing
14,070 Wounded*
41,340 POW

Official British History The War in France and Flanders by Major Ellis Pg327, gives a total figure for the British Army as 68,111-killed in action, died of wounds,missing, wounded or POW; a further 599 died as a result of injury or disease.

Regards

Andy H


*= Evacuated wounded only

[daveh]

The Germans took the entire Belgian Armed Forces captive on May 28th and they numbered somehwere over 550,000, allowing for casualties, at this time.
The figure of 200,000 POWs quoted by Andy H and the figure of 284,754 Belgian POWs from the 10 day reports covering the period from 10/5 - 10/7/40 obviously only account for c. half of this force. It may be that the numbers quoted relate only to the POws taken to camps in Germany. A Wikipedia site mentions c 225,000 Belgian POWs being taken to Germany, a figure close to the "adjusted" figure of 217,407 Belgian POWs for the period from 1/9/39 - 21/6/41 quoted by thom.

It may be that the difference between the total armed forces and the POWs sent to Germany is accounted for by the German policy of releasing the Flemish members of the armed forces. I understand that the Germans treated the Flemish and Walloon population differently to encourage splits and ease control of Belgium.

[Kelvin]

Hi, Thom and Andy , thank for your data. BTW, Thom, do your report 1/9/39-21/6/41 have data on how many Yugoslav and Greek were taken in April 1941 battle ?

[thom]

According to a German Heer report from October 1941, the POW total for the period from 1/9/39 to 21/6/41 was 390,500 Polish, 1,417,598 French, 61,055 British, 217,407 Belgian, 22,134 Dutch, 181,258 Yugoslavian, and 8 POWs from "different nations". Greeks were not listed in this report anymore because they were released. The data for Yugoslavian and Greek POWs was corrected several times in previous reports. Thus, 337,864 Yugoslavian and an estimated 210,000 Greek POWs were stated for the period from 6/4 to 30/4/41, excluding those Yugoslavian POWs from allied nations such as Croatians which were already released. Due to ongoing releases, 224,707 Yugoslavian and 0 Greek POWs were listed by 10/5, 218,863 Yugoslavian POWs by 20/5, and just 174,955 by 31/5/41.

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

According to a German Heer report from October 1941, the POW total for the period from 1/9/39 to 21/6/41 was 390,500 Polish,

Which is "quite" inconsistent with this:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3#p1323202

Some figures on the German booty (as reported by OKH GenStdH GenQu on 5/10/1939):

588,354 POWs (incl. 6 generals and 11,446 officers), among them 118,456 (incl. 5,031 officers) in Warschau, 42,000 (incl. 2,000 officers) Modlin, 4,500 (incl. 250 officers) Hela

Regarding the Western Campaign:

if we assume that most of the POWs of unknown nationality were French

A significant number of them must have been Polish, because the number of just 405 POWs of Polish nationality taken in France provided by that report is way too low. A much bigger number of Poles was captured.

[thom]

Yes, the figure from 1941 refers to the number of POWs that finally ran through the German POW organization, ie, they were registered, etc. A significant number had been released before.

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

So certainly WASt numbers refering to POW deaths in captivity (which you sent me via PM) refer to losses only among those 390,500 who were "registered" - not among the remaining 197,854, who weren't "registered".

The +/- 3,000 Polish POWs who were - according to Jochen Bohler, "Auftakt zum Vernichtungskrieg..." - murdered during the September Campaign of 1939, very soon after being captured - were certainly not registered. There was simply no time for them to "run through the German POW organization". They had been murdered long before anybody was able to "register" them - i.e. before they "finally ran through the German POW organization".

Thus those 3,000 or so (if Bohler is correct with his numbers) were deaths from the group of 197,854.

=========================================

And regarding the treatment of Polish POWs of Jewish nationality in German POW camps:

It is also possible that the +/- 25,000 Polish POWs of Jewish nationality who are supposed to be murdered in German Stalags (according to the source that I sent you via PM), had not been "registered" before being killed.

Whether they weren't "registered" deliberately (i.e. murdering them was part of Holocaust) or not, is to be established. Whether the number of 25,000 is accurate or not is to be established as well.

But this number is mentioned by many of "Jewish sources".

[thom]

Your assumption sounds reasonable but we don't know for sure as there is no clarification in the documents.

[thom]

I just noticed that the POW figures I provided above for the Western Campaign do not contain officers. In total there were 1817418 French, 21006 British, 405 Polish, 285002 Belgian, 269430 Dutch, 23914 "Colored", 71 Spanish and 101925 POWs of unknown nationality reported from 10.5.-10.7.1940.

[ljadw]

I have my doubts on the figure of 285002 Belgians,because Belgium mobilized some 600000 men,of course ,a lot escaped or were liberated before thei were transferred to Germany,and were not mentioned in the documents .
About the British:an official British document (from the National Archives,but ,not dated,)is giving as MIA for may and june 1940:
officers :1830
others:46329