The Normandy campaign.

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Carl Schwamberger
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Re: The Normandy campaign.

#346

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 16 Mar 2010, 23:11

Delta Tank wrote:The largest projo that I had go over me was a 155mm, I guess that is big, nothing compared to a 14, 15 or 16 inch projo. Carl, sometimes the "gun bunnies" would attach a razor blade between the fuze and the body of the projectile. We would take a razor blade and just screw the fuze down on top of it, it made an audible sound when flying through the air. I wonder if it effected the accuracy? No one ever complained :lol: ! I would imagine that atmospheric conditions would effect the sound a projo makes flying through the air.

Mike
Clamping things under fuze can cause the fuze to malfunction. We had enough problems with that to warrant prohibiting fun and games with razor blades or P38s.

We used ear plugs to alleviate the over pressure problem. But, I am still hard of hearing, tho that might also have something to do with the 2000+ rounds I fired through the M16 rifle. The safety regs. ensured anyone paying attention would not position a canon inside "Danger Zone E" of another. But, at high charges & sustained firing that would not be enough. I suspect the stories of WWI or WWII gunners experiencing severe pain from artillery firing were victims of the cannon being set to close together, so the adjacent crews were in each others over pressure zones. Some of the photographs I've looked at show Soviet cannon parked to close together for that and other reasons.

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Attrition
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Re: The Normandy campaign.

#347

Post by Attrition » 16 Mar 2010, 23:31

Are they them negative waves?


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LWD
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Re: The Normandy campaign.

#348

Post by LWD » 17 Mar 2010, 03:57

Inselaffe wrote:
The_Enigma wrote:When being taught basic First World War history in Junior/Senior school and being explained how men in the frontlines suffered from shell shock from the constant barrage i always imaged that the gunners must have felt similar effects? Considering it seems a bunch of you lot seem to be gunners, firing them off all day cause a hell of a headache at least?
Bit off topic but you did ask! Shell-shock is now generally accepted to have been PTSD (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PTSD ). Early on in WWI the theory circulated that it was caused wholly or in part by the effects of blast and concussion. There is no direct connection though clearly incidents with shell bursts etc were a major cause of shell-shock/PTSD. The terms 'battle shock' and 'combat stress' were more commonly used in WWII.

Cheers.
I believe the current theory or at least the statistics point to a correlation between concussions and PTSD.

RichTO90
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Re: The Normandy campaign.

#349

Post by RichTO90 » 17 Mar 2010, 06:37

Attrition wrote:Does anyone know of any writing on the westenders in Normandy (like the operations to capture St Lo and Cobra) similar to the monographs of the last couple of decades on Eastender operations like Epsom?
I'm not sure what you mean by "monographs" in this case? Are you referring for example to Brian Reid's and Terry Copp's works? Daglish's excellent study of the first day of GOODWOOD? Hart's Clash of Arms?

For the Americans - I assume that is what you mean by "westenders" - the best recent studies are Balkoski's two volumes on OMAHA and UTAH - the rotter beat me to them - Harry Yeide's trilogy on the Separate Tank Battalions, Tank Destroyer Battalions, and the Mechanized Cavalry, Colonel Michael Reardon's Victory at Mortain is indispensible, and Carafano's After D-Day is good, but too concise. Major General Reynold's Eagles and Bulldogs is wrongly overlooked and is close to being a masterpiece, much better IMHO than his almost hagiographic studies of the I and II SS-Panzerkorps. An oldie but goodie is still Cross-Channel Attack, while Blumenson's anemic Breakout and Pursuit pales a bit by comparison.

Finally, to toot my own horn a bit, I've finally started work on Spearheading the Breakout, which will look at that so-called "problem division", the 90th Infantry Division, but also the XV Corps, 5th AD, 79th ID, 80th ID, and 2e FF DB. Hopefully it will finally lay some of the sillier stories about the 90th Division to rest...and I may even have something to say about the whole "Falaise Gap" business - such as the silliness of calling it the "Falaise Gap" in the first place; the Chambois-Saint Lambert Gap is probably more accurate.

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bf109 emil
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Re: The Normandy campaign.

#350

Post by bf109 emil » 17 Mar 2010, 09:37

such as the silliness of calling it the "Falaise Gap" in the first place; the Chambois-Saint Lambert Gap is probably more accurate.
I think it was termed Falaise and slanged "Gap" afterwords more along the lines of German verbal references which referred to the Falaise Corridor and her need to keep it open, thus this corridor somehow turned from this German term into the allies necessity to close this corridor or hence "Falaise Gap" more so as named for closing the corridor, more so then the locale it was being closed at.

I did find this...During World War II, the Falaise pocket (also known as the Chambois pocket, Chambois-Montcormel pocket, Falaise-Chambois pocket) was the area between the four cities of Trun-Argentan-Vimoutiers-Chambois near Falaise France
and I may even have something to say about the whole "Falaise Gap" business
Rich unsure if this will help, but might give a Canadian perspective a little...Normandy 1944, Canada Remembers
The Breakout Beginshttp://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub. ... y/breakout...Normandy 1944, Canada Remembers The Road to Falaisehttp://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub. ... dy/falaiseNormandy 1944, Canada Remembers
Closing the Gaphttp://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub. ... rmandy/gap

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Attrition
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Re: The Normandy campaign.

#351

Post by Attrition » 17 Mar 2010, 11:22

~~~~~I'm not sure what you mean by "monographs" in this case? Are you referring for example to Brian Reid's and Terry Copp's works? Daglish's excellent study of the first day of GOODWOOD? Hart's Clash of Arms?~~~~~

Might be :P They seem a bit thin on the ground. I'm interested in the period between the fall of Cherbourg and the capture of St Lo. That Mortain book looks promising but having read a snippet of Blumenson I fear that his prose is nearly as off-putting as Gordon Prange's.

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Re: The Normandy campaign.

#352

Post by Delta Tank » 17 Mar 2010, 12:55

Try this one, it was pretty good, I don't know if it will cover all the bases that you are interested in, but it does cover the generals involved.
The Battle of the Generals: The Untold Story of the Falaise Pocket-The Campaign That Should Have Won World War II (Hardcover) Martin Blumenson.

Mike

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Re: The Normandy campaign.

#353

Post by RichTO90 » 17 Mar 2010, 13:01

Attrition wrote:Might be :P They seem a bit thin on the ground. I'm interested in the period between the fall of Cherbourg and the capture of St Lo. That Mortain book looks promising but having read a snippet of Blumenson I fear that his prose is nearly as off-putting as Gordon Prange's.
Okay then. Reardon's book on Mortain covers the period 6-14 August, so is outside the range you are looking for. Unfortunately, coverage for the battles of July before COBRA is pretty thin or concentrates entirely on the battle by the 29th Infantry Division for St Lo. Joe Balkoski's Beyond the Beachhead is perhaps the best for that, but is imperfect. Reading it in conjunction with Glover Johns memoir of being a battalion commander in the 29th The Clay Pigeons of St Lo is probably best. Unfortunately a serious look at the Battle of Mont Castre has yet to be writen, although I hope the first half of my new book will cover it adequately. Then, there needs to be a complete study of the complimentary action to the east by the 2nd Division to seize Hill 112, which also has never been done. Of course these were all actually corps-size actions, so even doing them as divisional monographs may be too narrow.

Otherwise, if you want actually monographs, the student papers written by many of the participants for the Infantry School courses 1946-1949 are available online through the library of the US Army Manuever Center of Excellence covering most of these events.
Richard Anderson
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall: the 1st Assault Brigade Royal Engineers on D-Day
Stackpole Books, 2009.

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The_Enigma
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Re: The Normandy campaign.

#354

Post by The_Enigma » 17 Mar 2010, 13:32

Delta Tank wrote:The Enigma,
Enigma wrote: I think the main thing ive learnt from this topic is that Americans should not be allowed near big guns and explosives ... they wanna tinker with em!!!!!
We were overly influenced by "Odd Ball" from the movie "Kelly's Heros"! If you have not seen that movie may I recommed it to you, get a couple of beers and have fun watching a funny movie with some great actors.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065938/

There is a youtube best of clip, but I can not access it at work.

Mike
Love that film, but now am somewhat concerned that your all half baked and tinkering with guns and explosives! 8O

:D

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Attrition
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Re: The Normandy campaign.

#355

Post by Attrition » 17 Mar 2010, 20:21

RichTO90 wrote:
Attrition wrote:Might be :P They seem a bit thin on the ground. I'm interested in the period between the fall of Cherbourg and the capture of St Lo. That Mortain book looks promising but having read a snippet of Blumenson I fear that his prose is nearly as off-putting as Gordon Prange's.
Okay then. Reardon's book on Mortain covers the period 6-14 August, so is outside the range you are looking for. Unfortunately, coverage for the battles of July before COBRA is pretty thin or concentrates entirely on the battle by the 29th Infantry Division for St Lo. Joe Balkoski's Beyond the Beachhead is perhaps the best for that, but is imperfect. Reading it in conjunction with Glover Johns memoir of being a battalion commander in the 29th The Clay Pigeons of St Lo is probably best. Unfortunately a serious look at the Battle of Mont Castre has yet to be writen, although I hope the first half of my new book will cover it adequately. Then, there needs to be a complete study of the complimentary action to the east by the 2nd Division to seize Hill 112, which also has never been done. Of course these were all actually corps-size actions, so even doing them as divisional monographs may be too narrow.

Otherwise, if you want actually monographs, the student papers written by many of the participants for the Infantry School courses 1946-1949 are available online through the library of the US Army Manuever Center of Excellence covering most of these events.
Eythenkew! I found the books you suggested looking through Amazon, which is a bit disappointing since I hoped they were the ones written by writers rather than historians and that a specialist like you would know of all the historical stuff. It looks like you'll have to write it for us. Is there much in the US Official History? I think I've read as much as there is on the east end so I need to expand the lodgement westwards and ponder the relationship between events at each end. Thanks.

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Re: The Normandy campaign.

#356

Post by RichTO90 » 17 Mar 2010, 22:38

I am SO confused! :P :lol:
Attrition wrote:Eythenkew! I found the books you suggested looking through Amazon, which is a bit disappointing since I hoped they were the ones written by writers rather than historians and that a specialist like you would know of all the historical stuff.
Er, um, what? Who is supposed to write them other than "writers"? Why is it disappointing that they are writers? Would you rather they were illiterate? And who exactly are these writers you are disappointed in? I assure you that Lieutenant Colonel Mark Reardon (USA, Ret) is a historian...he is now Senior Historian at the US Army Cenr for Military History. Ditto Dr. James J. Carafano...he's also retired Army, a graduate of West Point, holds a master's degree and a doctorate in history from Georgetown University as well as a master's degree in strategy from the U.S. Army War College, is a visiting professor at National Defense University and Georgetown University, previously served as an assistant professor at the U.S. Military Academy in West Point, N.Y., and as director of military studies at the Army's Center of Military History. Dr Stephen A. Hart is senior lecturer in the War Studies department, the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst and lectured in the International Studies Department at the University of Surrey, and in the War Studies Department, King's College London...

So who do you MEAN? :wink:
It looks like you'll have to write it for us. Is there much in the US Official History? I think I've read as much as there is on the east end so I need to expand the lodgement westwards and ponder the relationship between events at each end. Thanks.
Thank you for the encomium. But, Cross Channel Attack and Breakout and Pursuit are the US Official History. As I mentioned, the first is very good, the second is mediocre. You can also look at the earlier studies OMAHA Beachhead and UTAH Beach to Cherbourg, which were the first in the Army Historical Series and are still quite good; they are available online at the US Army Center for Military History website.

Part of the problem is the nature of the US assault and the impact of the Channel storm of 19-21 June. Delays in unit and supply unloading led to emphasis on the operation to seize Cherbourg. Essentially from about 14 June until 2 July there was virtually no major action other than by VII Corps in First Army. That enabled, among other things, the Germans to prepare their hedgerow line almost unimpeded. Therafter, all the emphasis has been on the "main" battle by the 29th Division for St Lo, ignoring the critical roles in the operation of the 2nd Division to the east seizing Hill 192 and the 35th Division to the west seizing Hill 112, and the operations by the 79th and 90th Divisions to seize Mont Castre (Hill 122...has anyone noticed that seemingly ALL hills in Normandy are XX2 meters high?) Similarly, COBRA gets all the attention for VII Corps and Lightening Joe Collins, which means VIII Corps to the west, and V and XIX Corps to the east get overshadowed.
Richard Anderson
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall: the 1st Assault Brigade Royal Engineers on D-Day
Stackpole Books, 2009.

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The_Enigma
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Re: The Normandy campaign.

#357

Post by The_Enigma » 17 Mar 2010, 23:01

So while the Anglo-Canadians were sitting on their asses doing squat to take Caen ... the Yanks were sitting on their asses doing squat squat? Ahh! 70 years and its all finally coming out!
(Hill 122...has anyone noticed that seemingly ALL hills in Normandy are XX2 meters high?)
Now that you mention it! Most of the hills/point that i know of that some sort of major battle seem to have a 2...
Our own Hill 112 x2, Hill 262 N and S, a few 272s etc

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Attrition
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Re: The Normandy campaign.

#358

Post by Attrition » 17 Mar 2010, 23:05

Writers are people who don't merit the title 'historian' because they don't use historians' methods, relying too much on anecdote and controversy. I was hoping that the books I saw looking at Amazon were the tip of the iceberg and that you and the other aficionados would know the better efforts. Alas your list was the same as the stuff I'd seen.

As you've seen I didn't even know that some of the titles yo suggested are the USOH. The writers you defend weren't the ones I was slighting by the way.

RichTO90
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Re: The Normandy campaign.

#359

Post by RichTO90 » 17 Mar 2010, 23:37

Attrition wrote:Writers are people who don't merit the title 'historian' because they don't use historians' methods, relying too much on anecdote and controversy. I was hoping that the books I saw looking at Amazon were the tip of the iceberg and that you and the other aficionados would know the better efforts. Alas your list was the same as the stuff I'd seen.
Okay, I just call them either "hacks" or "Martin Caiden"... :lol:
As you've seen I didn't even know that some of the titles yo suggested are the USOH. The writers you defend weren't the ones I was slighting by the way.
Who then? I assure you, I only listed the creme de la creme. :wink: Joe Balkoski is the semi/hemi/demi-official historian of the 29h Division and I happen to know definitely uses historians' methods...I've followed in his tracks and he in mine too many times. Harry Yeide is not a historian by profession, at least as far as I know, I've never asked him, but he also definitely uses historians' methods.

Glover Johns was there after all :lol: so is semi/hemi/demi-exempt from using historians' methods, instead he used his memory of events, his battalion journal, and his private diary. :D Ditto the chaps from the Infantry and Armor Schools writing postwar...most diligentally footnote, but a remarkable number of the footnotes are given as "Personal knowledge"... :wink:

So who from my list is just a "writer"/hack/Martin Caiden? I'm not trying to steer you wrong you know. :lol:
Richard Anderson
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall: the 1st Assault Brigade Royal Engineers on D-Day
Stackpole Books, 2009.

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Attrition
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Re: The Normandy campaign.

#360

Post by Attrition » 18 Mar 2010, 00:20

As you pointed out there isn't any of the stuff I want because it hasn't been written.

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