D-Day...I just don't get it...

Discussions on WW2 in Western Europe & the Atlantic.
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admfisher
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Pz Dv on D day

Post by admfisher » 17 Mar 2003 00:54

The only attempt to reach the beach head was by a Kampfgruppe that was stopped by mostly naval fire.

Even if the the invasion went and then was countered by the Pz Dv's, there would of been a very desperate fight.
The allie control of the air and the naval gunfire could very well be brought down on any concentrations that would be fool hard to get with in at least five miles of the beach head if that is, one was created.

admfisher

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Scott Smith
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Re: Pz Dv on D day

Post by Scott Smith » 17 Mar 2003 02:50

admfisher wrote:The only attempt to reach the beach head was by a Kampfgruppe that was stopped by mostly naval fire.

Even if the the invasion went and then was countered by the Pz Dv's, there would of been a very desperate fight.

The allied control of the air and the naval gunfire could very well be brought down on any concentrations that would be fool hard to get with in at least five miles of the beach head if that is, one was created.
I completely agree.
:)

DarthMaur
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Re: d-day

Post by DarthMaur » 17 Mar 2003 03:03

admfisher wrote:Even if the Germans knew where the invasion was they would of had one very ruff time of replusing it.
For one if the Germans would of know then the allies would of.
This is turn would of led to either another type of invasion or a more massed naval armada and Tac Air support. With only a few older battleships the allies were able to break up more than one German attack. Even the one attack that did get close to the beach was stopped mainly by naval guns.
More than one German has said that the amount of gunfire used was near to or more than what he had ever experianced on the East Front.


admfisher
8)
Yep, its the same thing that hapenned on Sicily. When HG division broke thru all the way to beaches, it was meet by fire fron naval 12'' guns.

Well, Mark IV can't really match a heavy cruiser, so they had no choice but to pull out.

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admfisher
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danke

Post by admfisher » 17 Mar 2003 03:05

Thanks

But please dont think that the Panzer Divisions would of been nothing but a pain. The 21 st for one could of and did raise royal hell with allies.
Overall I will stand with my analysis though.

admfisher

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Beowulf
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Post by Beowulf » 17 Mar 2003 03:05

How could this of ever worked if the Germans didn't screw it up?
Think about it...your trying to land 5 divisions on a guarded beach
If Rommel would of had his troops and panzer divisions near the beaches
For one if the Germans would of know then the allies would of.
Even if the the invasion went and then was countered by the Pz Dv's, there would of been a very desperate fight.
Sorry to be critical and pedantic, but this bugs me no end. Let me give you guys a tip.. if you expect any credibility when second-guessing the generals in WWII, learn how to write in the English language. This kind of crap is very hard to read and just screams out that the author isn't worth listening to in the first place. After all, he hasn't mastered the rudiments of English yet!

Would of, could of... it's would have and could have (or would've and could've.) Don't call this a misspelling, it's a misusage. Different words have different meanings.

Your, you're;
there, their, they're;
to, too, two...these are all different words with different meanings. Please learn which is which.

Don't get all pissed off at me for bringing this up, either. It's for your own good. :|

To address the topic, there is no possible way the Germans could have repulsed the allied invasion as things were. The Brits and Americans were just too determined and too well-equipped to be repulsed. The battle could have been much bloodier if all forces had been committed to Normandy, but with absolute allied air supremacy it was only a matter of time before the allies would have succeeded. If the Germans had had about 2000 Me262s and 2000 torpedo planes in the theater at the time (with the experienced pilots to fly them), things might have been quite different.

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Qvist
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Post by Qvist » 17 Mar 2003 10:00

There really isn't any great mystery about this. To land troops against beach fortifications is simply a tactical challenge. The allies solved it, which is not surprising considering the ample amphibious experience they already had, and they had ample forces available to swamp German defences. On 6 June alone, more forces were landed than the Germans had available in Normandy. If the Germans had had more forces that could be committed in the early hours before the allied grip on the beaches had solidified, the outcome might obviously have been different. Either way it is basically just a question of force levels.

I do tend towards the opinion that Rommel's suggested approach to the defense was a better solution than von Rundstedt's, if for nothing else because the latter had no prospect of success whatever (at least with the benefit of hindsight). But all in all, and considering what they did know nd what they did not, the distribution of German forces in France at the time seems rational enough I think. The basic problem was that there just was not enough forces. DR: The division was not even combat ready on 6 June. It wasn't really in July either for that matter, it's equipment state was still weak and training was incomplete. This is probably also reflected in the fact that it was never committed as a division (ie, it operated mainly elements under command of other formations) in Normandy, and it probably cannot be called an elite formation at this time.

I doubt that FORTITUDE can be seen as truly esseantial in the allied success. That honor should rather belong to the air forces that crippled the French railnet. It appears quite clear that this was the main reason the Germans did not move more forces faster to Normandy, not FORTITUDE.


cheers

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PanzerKing
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Post by PanzerKing » 18 Mar 2003 00:34

Thanks for all the replies! It's a very complicated and complex situation.

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