The Normandy "Masterplan"

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Aber
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Re: The Normandy "Masterplan"

#46

Post by Aber » 30 May 2019, 23:37

Tom from Cornwall wrote:
27 May 2019, 17:18
Dempsey recorded in his diary (WO285/9) for Tuesday 27 June 1944 (the second day of Op EPSOM) that:
111. 1600 – 1830
Flew to and from HQ 21 Army Group at BLAY. Bradley was there and we discussed present and future operations. First Army will be ready to strike Southwards on the axis LA HAYE DU PUITS – LESSAY – COUTANCES on 1 July.


Did Bradley leave a description of this meeting with Montgomery and Dempsey?

Regards

Tom
Not that I've seen, but Hamilton footnotes a comment to Chester B Hansen's diary, so there's a record somewhere.

Richard Anderson
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Re: The Normandy "Masterplan"

#47

Post by Richard Anderson » 31 May 2019, 02:22

Aber wrote:
30 May 2019, 23:37
Tom from Cornwall wrote:
27 May 2019, 17:18
Dempsey recorded in his diary (WO285/9) for Tuesday 27 June 1944 (the second day of Op EPSOM) that:
111. 1600 – 1830
Flew to and from HQ 21 Army Group at BLAY. Bradley was there and we discussed present and future operations. First Army will be ready to strike Southwards on the axis LA HAYE DU PUITS – LESSAY – COUTANCES on 1 July.


Did Bradley leave a description of this meeting with Montgomery and Dempsey?

Regards

Tom
Not that I've seen, but Hamilton footnotes a comment to Chester B Hansen's diary, so there's a record somewhere.
Without going through the Bradley WW2 collection at USAMHI-AHEC I would be hesitant to describe anything called a "Bradley description of a meeting" as anything other than a postwar secondary source.
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Tom from Cornwall
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Re: The Normandy "Masterplan"

#48

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 31 May 2019, 17:35

Aber wrote:
30 May 2019, 23:37
Hamilton footnotes a comment to Chester B Hansen's diary, so there's a record somewhere.
Aber,

Thanks, I'll have a look at that.
Richard Anderson wrote:
31 May 2019, 02:22
Without going through the Bradley WW2 collection at USAMHI-AHEC I would be hesitant to describe anything called a "Bradley description of a meeting" as anything other than a postwar secondary source.
Rich,

Yes, the increasingly bitter acrimony post-war certainly didn't help the historians much...

I'll see what I can dig up. It would be interesting to see if First Army's operational orders during the period described Second Army's task as well.

In the meantime, I note that Montgomery, Dempsey and Bradley met again on 30 June 44. In terms of the Normandy "Masterplan" debate, it is notable that Dempsey records that:
126. 1600 Conference at HQ 21 Army Group with C-in-C and General Bradley. First Army will take over the RIGHT sector of 30 Corps tomorrow, and I will put 7 Armd Div in reserve SOUTH of BAYEUX.

Second Army task remains the same – to attract to itself (and to defeat) all the German armour and, when opportunity offers, to take CAEN.
Dempsey seems to have spent most of that day visiting his Commanders and ensuring that they had co-ordinated all their defensive firepower resources ("artillery, anti-tank, etc" as he puts it) in preparation to defeat the expected German armoured counter-offensive into the Operation "EPSOM" salient. This, it seems, is why he asked Bradley to relieve 7 Armd Div so that it could be withdrawn into reserve ready to counter-attack if 8 Corps's front was penetrated.

Regards

Tom

Aber
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Re: The Normandy "Masterplan"

#49

Post by Aber » 01 Jun 2019, 08:19

Tom from Cornwall wrote:
31 May 2019, 17:35
This, it seems, is why he asked Bradley to relieve 7 Armd Div so that it could be withdrawn into reserve ready to counter-attack if 8 Corps's front was penetrated.
Plus 7th Armoured's sector of the front-line was rather awkward - see the map

https://www.loc.gov/resource/g5701s.ict21025/

and subsequent days to see the changes.

Tom from Cornwall
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Re: The Normandy "Masterplan"

#50

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 05 Jun 2019, 11:52

And another mention by Dempsey of the way that the campaign in Normandy was actually fought as a partnership between the First and Second Armies (unlike much of the historiography!) comes in his diary entry for 8 July 1944 (WO285/9):
SATURDAY – 8 JUL 44

151. - 1 Corps attack on CAEN started this morning. It went well throughout the day and by nightfall leading troops of 3 Div on the LEFT flank were in CAEN and leading troops of 3 Cdn Div on the RIGHT flank were on the Western outskirts of ST GERMAIN. German troops holding the many villages in the centre were thus practically cut off.

152. 1100 Saw Commander 1 Corps at his Tac HQ SOUTH of COLOMBY. He gave me the situation. I agreed with him that the time had come to pass 33 Armd Bde and the reserve Bde of 3 Div through on his LEFT. I gave orders for 34 Armd Bde to move into 1 Corps reserve.

153. 1230 Saw Commander 8 Corps at his Headquarters and told him that it seemed almost certain that his attack towards R ORNE would start on the morning of 10 July.

154. 1600 C-in-C came to my Headquarters. He wants me to press on strongly with the 8 Corps attack, so as to help First Army get on, and to advance SOUTH towards THURY HARCOURT with my LEFT on R ORNE – this operation to take priority over the advance EAST of R ORNE.

Regards

Tom

Aber
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Re: The Normandy "Masterplan"

#51

Post by Aber » 06 Jun 2019, 14:30

Tom from Cornwall wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 11:52
And another mention by Dempsey of the way that the campaign in Normandy was actually fought as a partnership between the First and Second Armies (unlike much of the historiography!) comes in his diary entry for 8 July 1944 (WO285/9):
Of course Montgomery's visit was after he received Eisenhower's letter of 7 July which contains:
I am familiar with your plan for generally holding firm with your left, attracting thereto all of the enemy armour, while your right pushes down the Peninsula and threatens the rear and flank of the forces facing British 2nd Army
but also shows signs of impatience.

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Re: The Normandy "Masterplan"

#52

Post by OpanaPointer » 06 Jun 2019, 15:51

Breaking news, the landings have failed.

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Michael Kenny
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Re: The Normandy "Masterplan"

#53

Post by Michael Kenny » 06 Jun 2019, 18:40

Tom from Cornwall wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 11:52
And another mention by Dempsey of the way that the campaign in Normandy was actually fought as a partnership between the First and Second Armies (unlike much of the historiography!)
I know that GOODWOOD/COBRA were supposed to be launched at the same time but for some reason Bradley could not make the start-line and GOODWOOD went ahead without him. Is there any mention of this intent in any reference?
Hard to see how such a double-blow could not be successful.

Tom from Cornwall
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Re: The Normandy "Masterplan"

#54

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 06 Jun 2019, 22:20

Hi Michael,

The intention to launch “Cobra” on 19 July is mentioned in a letter from Montgomery to Eisenhower on 13 July and in a letter to Brooke on 14 July. Both quoted in Brooks volume of Montgomery’s papers for Normandy.

Happy to post up details if you don’t have that book.

Regards

Tom

Tom from Cornwall
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Re: The Normandy "Masterplan"

#55

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 23 Feb 2020, 13:10

General Bradley has recently been quoted in Andrew Robertson's book 'Command and Valour: The Grand Strategy of D-Day & the Battle for Normandy...' (p.17):
"The Overlord ground strategy formulated months before...called for Monty not to 'break out' but to hold and draw the Germans to his sector, while I 'broke out' in my sector and wheeled to the east. We adhered to that basic concept throughout the Normandy Campaign with no major changes in strategy."
{reference: Gelb - Ike and Monty: Generals at War, p.331]

Interesting for two reasons. Firstly, of course, that Montgomery commanded both sectors and Bradley was in fact his subordinate at this point. Secondly, Bradley is absolutely correct and the basic concept (or "Masterplan") for the Normandy campaign was adhered to. :thumbsup:

Regards

Tom

Sean Oliver
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Re: The Normandy "Masterplan"

#56

Post by Sean Oliver » 16 Apr 2020, 00:32

This was clearly the intention of the first stage. 21 AG at Caen will protect Brad's rear and flank while Brad took Cherbourg and possibly Brittany. I dont think there was any concept or plan beyond that as far as liberating France was concerned. That was simply too distant in time to determine.
The idea that Cobra was the result of Montys ppre dday master plan is laughable.

Michael Kenny
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Re: The Normandy "Masterplan"

#57

Post by Michael Kenny » 16 Apr 2020, 07:33

Sean Oliver wrote:
16 Apr 2020, 00:32
.
The idea that Cobra was the result of Montys ppre dday master plan is laughable.
Your hilarity is misplaced. The discussion was to find out when COBRA was to start. Was it planned as a double-blow with GOODWOOD and if so why was it delayed.

Sean Oliver
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Re: The Normandy "Masterplan"

#58

Post by Sean Oliver » 22 Apr 2020, 00:53

Oh, pardon me.
Wasn't Cobra delayed due to insufficient supply buildup? Something about 'beach congeztion' and/or 'poor Channel weather '?

Delta Tank
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Re: The Normandy "Masterplan"

#59

Post by Delta Tank » 15 May 2020, 13:05

    Sean Oliver wrote:
    22 Apr 2020, 00:53
    Oh, pardon me.
    Wasn't Cobra delayed due to insufficient supply buildup? Something about 'beach congeztion' and/or 'poor Channel weather '?
    No!

    Mike

    Tom from Cornwall
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    Re: The Normandy "Masterplan"

    #60

    Post by Tom from Cornwall » 15 May 2020, 14:29

    M51
    Montgomery to Gen. Eisenhower
    13 July 1944, 2000 hours.

    TOPSEC. EYES ONLY for General EISENHOWER from MONTGOMERY. Am going to launch two very big attacks next week. Second Army begin at dawn on 16 July and work up to the big operation on Tuesday 18 July when 8 Corps with three armoured divisions will be launched to the country east of ORNE. Note change of date from 17 to 18 July. First Army launch a heavy attack with six divisions about 5 miles west of ST LO on Wednesday 19 July. The whole weight of air power will be required for Second Army on 18 July and First Army on 19 July. have seen CONINGHAM and explained what is wanted. Thank you for your OA.305 sent today.

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