OP Weserübung 1940

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phylo_roadking
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Re: OP Weserübung 1940

#16

Post by phylo_roadking » 05 Feb 2013, 22:58

Supposedly - if you study the files of the Kriegsmarine you'll find the true cause of Weserübung, and that being the desire for German bases in Norway. All other reasons for the invasion being subordinated this wish - and being mostly stuff used by Reader et al to "sell the idea to Hitler".
I take it as you find this interpretation of the cause(s) for Weserübung to be false...
No I don't find it to be false - I find it to be HALF correct - as I've said before

Because when it comes to violating a nation's Neutrality for WHATEVER reason - it's about one side doing it and not the other, whoever that side may be. Neutrality is gone. One side doing it doesn't make it different from the other side doing it - no matter how welcome/friendly or not, it's still invasion and occupation. A transfer from Neutrality to being (on the same side as) one belligerent or the other.

For the Norwegians - no matter what they thought of the Royal Navy...the KM wanting bases or the RN wanting bases was the same thing; a change from Neutrality to Belligerency.

As I've said before on AHF - and quite frequently - "Neutrality" isn't a "third way"; "Neutral" politicians like Koht liked to think it was - but it isn't. What very few European and Scandanavian Neutrals survived, did so by keeping a foot in both camps to one extent or another, there was no "space" between the two belligerents to occupy.

How does this impact the "causes" for WESERUBUNG? Whether Raeder wanted Norway for his own bases, or to stop Britain having bases....Norway was to be invaded and occupied. Don't loose sight of this - a real war crime, a breach of the Hague Convention - in the "why" on Rader's part; only a month into the war he was proposing Hitler order the unprovoked invasion of a Neutral country.

HOWEVER - quite frankly, whatever's in the KM files, whatever Raeder's position was - the decision wasn't down to him. What we DO know from the history of events I outlined above is that the decision rested 100% with Hitler...and we have SEVERAL recorded occasions where he refused to move on Norway in line with Raeder's requests, and instead preferred to safeguard Norway's neutrality unless BRITAIN breached it.

Raeder may have made decisions for the KM - but Hitler made decisions for Raeder. And we KNOW what Hitler was thinking for October 1939-January 1940. Quisling recorded it, Halder recorded it, Keitel recorded it...
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Re: OP Weserübung 1940

#17

Post by Wolf » 06 Feb 2013, 02:35

phylo_roadking wrote:No I don't find it to be false - I find it to be HALF correct - as I've said before
Or half false... :lol:

I don't see much wiggle room though - either it was a case of "Germany attacked Norway to gain bases" or it wasn't.
phylo_roadking wrote:HOWEVER - quite frankly, whatever's in the KM files, whatever Raeder's position was - the decision wasn't down to him. What we DO know from the history of events I outlined above is that the decision rested 100% with Hitler...and we have SEVERAL recorded occasions where he refused to move on Norway in line with Raeder's requests, and instead preferred to safeguard Norway's neutrality unless BRITAIN breached it.
I think we can all easily agree that the decision was not down to Reader.
phylo_roadking wrote:Raeder may have made decisions for the KM - but Hitler made decisions for Raeder. And we KNOW what Hitler was thinking for October 1939-January 1940. Quisling recorded it, Halder recorded it, Keitel recorded it...
Do you know of any evidence of Reader or others in the Kriegsmarine having successfully influenced Hitler by presenting other reasons why Norway had to be invaded - i.e. "stuff used to sell the idea of Weserübung to Hitler"?


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phylo_roadking
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Re: OP Weserübung 1940

#18

Post by phylo_roadking » 06 Feb 2013, 02:52

Do you know of any evidence of Reader or others in the Kriegsmarine having successfully influenced Hitler by presenting other reasons why Norway had to be invaded - i.e. "stuff used to sell the idea of Weserübung to Hitler"?
On the contrary, I've given you three separate occasions IIRC where the arguements used failed to sway Hitler.
I don't see much wiggle room though - either it was a case of "Germany attacked Norway to gain bases" or it wasn't.
You're not grasping what I'm trying to explain - this....
either it was a case of "Germany attacked Norway to gain bases" or it wasn't
...isn't the "case" as you put it. You're looking at the wrong issue. The case was "do we violate Norway's neutrality or do we let the British?"...and it's clear that HITLER was far more preoccupied with preventing the British doing so than letting Raeder jump first. Yes he had plans drawn up but from what he said to Quisling AND Raeder they were only to be actioned if there were signs that the British were going to do so.
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Kingfish
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Re: OP Weserübung 1940

#19

Post by Kingfish » 06 Feb 2013, 17:06

It's worth noting that Hitler was focused on the upcoming campaign in the West, and would have preferred not to have the distraction that Norway would have created. That there were contingency plans in place for such an operation does not automatically mean it was penciled in prior to Fall Gelb/Rot.

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Re: OP Weserübung 1940

#20

Post by fredleander » 06 Feb 2013, 17:21

phylo_roadking wrote:...isn't the "case" as you put it. You're looking at the wrong issue. The case was "do we violate Norway's neutrality or do we let the British?"...and it's clear that HITLER was far more preoccupied with preventing the British doing so than letting Raeder jump first. Yes he had plans drawn up but from what he said to Quisling AND Raeder they were only to be actioned if there were signs that the British were going to do so.
So, what you are saying is that ultimately the British were to blame for the German invasion of Norway....?

Fred
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Re: OP Weserübung 1940

#21

Post by fredleander » 06 Feb 2013, 17:34

Kingfish wrote:It's worth noting that Hitler was focused on the upcoming campaign in the West, and would have preferred not to have the distraction that Norway would have created. That there were contingency plans in place for such an operation does not automatically mean it was penciled in prior to Fall Gelb/Rot.
What Hitler (Raeder, reilly) feared was that with a British occupation of key points along the Norwegian coast they could succeed in what they did not succeed during WW1, an effective blockade of the North Sea outlets. Even if they eventually mined off the North Sea during WW1 the blockade was not effective even if the Germans did not have the use of French ports as in WW2 when they could have passed their U-boats along the French Channel coast. However, this they could not do with their "heavies", an important factor for the Kriegsmarine. I then prefer to see the Channel Dash as a somewhat lucky event. The RN and RAF could not be expected to botch it up like that every time.

Fred
River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book about Operation Sealion:
https://www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - an eight-book series on the Pacific War:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D3 ... rw_dp_labf

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Re: OP Weserübung 1940

#22

Post by Wolf » 06 Feb 2013, 18:58

phylo_roadking wrote:...isn't the "case" as you put it. You're looking at the wrong issue. The case was "do we violate Norway's neutrality or do we let the British?"
The case is that I have run into a Danish "historian" who claims that Norway was invaded because the Kriegsmarine wanted bases in Norway. Just that - the Kriegsmarine wanted bases in Norway - and all other possible reasons were more or less unimportant compared to the Kriegsmarine wish to be able to base naval units in Norway. Reader etc supposedly did this because of lessons learned from WWI and the evidence is supposedly found in Kriegsmarine files and internal correspondence. Other reasons why Norway needed to be invaded were supposedly presented to Hitler in order to "sell the idea" - yet, the true motivation behind the invason of Norway really was that the Kriegsmarine wanted bases in Norway.

The way I see it this interpretation of events is either true, or it is false.

I have yet to find anything of substance to support it.

While it is known that the Kriegsmarine did like the idea of Norwegian bases I have yet to see any sources that claim this to be the one important factor for Weserübung.

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Re: OP Weserübung 1940

#23

Post by Wolf » 06 Feb 2013, 19:23

Kingfish wrote:It's worth noting that Hitler was focused on the upcoming campaign in the West, and would have preferred not to have the distraction that Norway would have created. That there were contingency plans in place for such an operation does not automatically mean it was penciled in prior to Fall Gelb/Rot.
Why did the Germans launch Op Weserübung?

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Re: OP Weserübung 1940

#24

Post by Kingfish » 06 Feb 2013, 19:24

Wolf wrote:The case is that I have run into a Danish "historian" who claims that Norway was invaded because the Kriegsmarine wanted bases in Norway. Just that - the Kriegsmarine wanted bases in Norway - and all other possible reasons were more or less unimportant compared to the Kriegsmarine wish to be able to base naval units in Norway. Reader etc supposedly did this because of lessons learned from WWI and the evidence is supposedly found in Kriegsmarine files and internal correspondence. Other reasons why Norway needed to be invaded were supposedly presented to Hitler in order to "sell the idea" - yet, the true motivation behind the invason of Norway really was that the Kriegsmarine wanted bases in Norway.
Despite the obvious tactical advantages gained, I doubt the invasion would have gone ahead simply to fulfill the Kriegsmarine's desires. I'm sure after the fall of France the Luftwaffe could have made a similar and equally convincing plea for bases in Spain to interdict the Western Med, but as with Norway there were other more important matters at the time.

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Re: OP Weserübung 1940

#25

Post by Wolf » 06 Feb 2013, 19:34

Kingfish wrote:Despite the obvious tactical advantages gained, I doubt the invasion would have gone ahead simply to fulfill the Kriegsmarine's desires.


It is highly doubtful given that Hitler had last say in Germany, and AFIK had limited interest in naval matters.

Kingfish wrote:....but as with Norway there were other more important matters at the time.
What were the most important matters regarding Norway, prompting the launch of Op Weserübung?

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Re: OP Weserübung 1940

#26

Post by Kingfish » 06 Feb 2013, 19:36

Wolf wrote:
Kingfish wrote:It's worth noting that Hitler was focused on the upcoming campaign in the West, and would have preferred not to have the distraction that Norway would have created. That there were contingency plans in place for such an operation does not automatically mean it was penciled in prior to Fall Gelb/Rot.
Why did the Germans launch Op Weserübung?
To forestall a British operation which as Phylo pointed out they knew was in the works,
-and-
to secure Norweigian ports and airfields for their own use

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Re: OP Weserübung 1940

#27

Post by Denim Demon » 06 Feb 2013, 22:00

The go ahead was given when the british strarted to lay minefields outside Vestfjorden. If that was allowed german transports would have to leave norwegian wathers and enter international were they would be attacked by rn. It also showed that the norwegian government would or could not garantie its own neutrality. Regards dd

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Re: OP Weserübung 1940

#28

Post by fredleander » 07 Feb 2013, 10:37

Denim Demon wrote:The go ahead was given when the british strarted to lay minefields outside Vestfjorden. If that was allowed german transports would have to leave norwegian wathers and enter international were they would be attacked by rn. It also showed that the norwegian government would or could not garantie its own neutrality. Regards dd
To my knowledge, the go-ahead was given long before the British started mining. That started on April 8th. At that time the slowest German transports had already been in the sea for a while. The actual landings started on April 9th. However, there was much talk of mining Norwegian territory before that.

Fred
River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book about Operation Sealion:
https://www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - an eight-book series on the Pacific War:
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Re: OP Weserübung 1940

#29

Post by phylo_roadking » 07 Feb 2013, 20:04

It is highly doubtful given that Hitler had last say in Germany
And with that statement - I think it's fair to say that you've quite a lot more to learn.

A lot happened "in Hitler's name" because he didn't know about it....

BUT if he knew about or was involved in something he incontrovertibly had the last say. And as you've been shown several times now, he was VERY much involved in the gestation of and generating the planning of WESERUBUNG from the very first suggestion in Ooctober 1939....and was interested in the area and the threat of Allied breaches of Norwegian/Scandanavian Neutrality YEARS before that.
It also showed that the norwegian government would or could not garantie its own neutrality
The Altmark Incident demonstrated THAT some time before... 8O
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Re: OP Weserübung 1940

#30

Post by Wolf » 08 Feb 2013, 02:47

phylo_roadking wrote:And with that statement - I think it's fair to say that you've quite a lot more to learn.

A lot happened "in Hitler's name" because he didn't know about it....
And with that statement - I think it's fair to say I won't be learning much from you. :roll:

It is not exactly like there were many countries invaded by Germany without Hitler knowing about it.

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