Patton's Third Army

Discussions on WW2 in Western Europe & the Atlantic.
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Pips
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Patton's Third Army

#1

Post by Pips » 02 May 2017, 07:31

Patton's Third Army dash across France following Bradley's Operation Cobra breakout is often hailed as one of the greatest advances of the War. It can certainly be argued that it was the 'greatest' Allied advance of the war.

But just wondering how it compares to those great offensives mounted by the Germans in 1940 in France, and again in Russia in 1941 and 1942? In terms of distance travelled, or prisoners taken, does the 3rd Army offensive rate higher? Lower? Comparative?

Pardon my asking, but I'm more an air nut than ground man. :)

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Re: Patton's Third Army

#2

Post by Roberto Muehlenkamp » 02 May 2017, 18:55

Battle of France, 1940: See under https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_France

Operation Barbarossa, 1941: See under https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa

Patton’s Third Army, 1944/45:
The Third Army claimed by its records to have killed 47,500 and wounded 115,700 of the enemy between August 1, 1944 and May 9, 1945 at the time hostilities were to have ceased. There were 765,483 prisoners captured during the same time period. Between May 9 and May 13, there were 515,205 prisoners who were processed by various U.S. Army corps and division cages. This gave a total of 1,280,688 enemy prisoners captured. To include the killed and wounded, total enemy losses attributed to the Third Army were estimated at 1,443,888.
Between August 1, 1944 and May 9, 1945 (0001 B hours or one minute past midnight, double daylight saving time) the Third Army lost 27,104 killed and 86,267 wounded. There were 18,957 injuries of all kinds and 28,237 men listed as missing in action. To include 127 men captured by the enemy, brought total casualties of the Third Army to 160,692 in 281 continuous days of operations.
Fuller, Robert P. (2004), Last Shots for Patton's Third Army, Portland, ME: NETR Press, ISBN 097405190X, p. 254.


Michael Kenny
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Re: Patton's Third Army

#3

Post by Michael Kenny » 02 May 2017, 19:07

There is a paper online that shows how these 'numbers' were arrived at. At wars end all US Units were asked to give a number of all the casualties/AFVs they accounted for in NWE. Some Units just gave a list of their claims but lots of the replies contain a caution that the numbers are speculative at best and as the parent unit and a sub-unit were both reporting the same actions duplication was rife and in effect the totals worthless.
It has to be said that the ledger for 3rd Army is right at the top end of the scale for being 'optimistic'

Aber
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Re: Patton's Third Army

#4

Post by Aber » 06 May 2017, 23:22

Patton has good PR

St Lo to Metz is c 330 miles (shortest route) - although Third Army took a detour, which took c 6 weeks.

Longest advance by western allies is ElAlamein to Tunis c 1700 miles in 6 months

Fastest single day advance is liberation of Brussels c 70 miles

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Re: Patton's Third Army

#5

Post by Knouterer » 07 May 2017, 08:39

A better candidate for "greatest allied advance of the war" is Operation Bagration, the Soviet offensive that started on 22 June 1944 and led to the near-total destruction of Army Group Centre (900,000 German casualties on the whole Eastern front from 1 June to 29 August) and the loss of vast amounts of territory.
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton

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Kingfish
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Re: Patton's Third Army

#6

Post by Kingfish » 08 May 2017, 01:44

Aber wrote:Fastest single day advance is liberation of Brussels c 70 miles
If I am not mistaken Combeforce traveled much further in about the same time.
The gods do not deduct from a man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.
~Babylonian Proverb

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Sheldrake
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Re: Patton's Third Army

#7

Post by Sheldrake » 08 May 2017, 02:10

The Guards Armoured Division (c.12,000 in tracked and wheeled vehicles advanced 75 miles in a day over the roads of France and Belgium. Combeforce was a much smaller force, C2,000 men mainly wheeled vehicles, but over desert.

Both were admirable marches

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Re: Patton's Third Army

#8

Post by LineDoggie » 08 May 2017, 19:34

Michael Kenny wrote: It has to be said that the ledger for 3rd Army is right at the top end of the scale for being 'optimistic'
By Whom is it said?
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

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Re: Patton's Third Army

#9

Post by Michael Kenny » 08 May 2017, 19:54

LineDoggie wrote:
Michael Kenny wrote: It has to be said that the ledger for 3rd Army is right at the top end of the scale for being 'optimistic'
By Whom is it said?
By anyone who knows the actual German losses.

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Re: Patton's Third Army

#10

Post by Richard Anderson » 08 May 2017, 20:24

Michael Kenny wrote:
LineDoggie wrote:
Michael Kenny wrote: It has to be said that the ledger for 3rd Army is right at the top end of the scale for being 'optimistic'
By Whom is it said?
By anyone who knows the actual German losses.
Really? Michael, the PoW figures are accurate. Are you saying that it is unlikely the Germans suffered an average of 169 KIA and 412 per day fighting an army-sized opponent that was usually attacking? I suspect they are slightly high, since they were based on estimates from body counts and number of wounded PoW captured, but I would hesitate to declare them any more 'optimistic" than those figures estimated by the other Allied armies.
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Michael Kenny
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Re: Patton's Third Army

#11

Post by Michael Kenny » 08 May 2017, 20:48

I was thinking more of the 648 German tanks claimed by 3rd Army TD Units alone and the 3000 AFVs & 38000 vehicles tally.
As I said I came across a paper that had all the returns for US NWE Units with their post-war claims a month or 2 back whilst on another search. I bookmarked it but cant find it now. The gist was here is the info you asked for but it is not very accurate'.
Anyone else have the link?

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Sheldrake
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Re: Patton's Third Army

#12

Post by Sheldrake » 08 May 2017, 21:35

Yeah.

One eye brow raising claim is that the 3rd US Army was responsible for knocking out 1/4 of German AFVs lost in 1944-45. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipment ... rld_War_II

Oh and the way 3rd Army as a whole bucked the much quoted casualty ratio between Germans and US troops. The rest of the American army must have been real rubbish!

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Re: Patton's Third Army

#13

Post by Richard Anderson » 08 May 2017, 21:36

Michael Kenny wrote:I was thinking more of the 648 German tanks claimed by 3rd Army TD Units alone and the 3000 AFVs & 38000 vehicles tally.
As I said I came across a paper that had all the returns for US NWE Units with their post-war claims a month or 2 back whilst on another search. I bookmarked it but cant find it now. The gist was here is the info you asked for but it is not very accurate'.
Anyone else have the link?
Oh, thanks, I understand now. As usual, I suspect the claim by the TD for tanks "knocked out" included everything they think they hit, while the "AFV" count covered a multitude of sins. I have a copy of the responses to the Historical Section request on paper. I can try to dig it out if you like.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell

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Re: Patton's Third Army

#14

Post by Mori » 21 Aug 2017, 22:31

Michael Kenny wrote:There is a paper online that shows how these 'numbers' were arrived at. At wars end all US Units were asked to give a number of all the casualties/AFVs they accounted for in NWE. Some Units just gave a list of their claims but lots of the replies contain a caution that the numbers are speculative at best and as the parent unit and a sub-unit were both reporting the same actions duplication was rife and in effect the totals worthless.
It has to be said that the ledger for 3rd Army is right at the top end of the scale for being 'optimistic'
If you could point the online paper, it would be much appreciated.

I am aware of at least one huge caveat when taking PoW numbers on the Western front: you have to ignore mass surrenders of German units at war end (in the Ruhr pocket from Apr 14th, 1945 and everywhere else from April 20th, 1945). The PoWs include anyone wearing a uniform, down to personel of train stations.

One survey by US Third Army shows that there is no more than 8% combat personel in the PoWs captured during their last 2 weeks of operations.

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Re: Patton's Third Army

#15

Post by Michael Kenny » 21 Aug 2017, 23:28

Mori wrote:If you could point the online paper, it would be much appreciated.
I know I bookmarked it but given I have 3 browsers and dozens of folders/sub-folders of links and I did not note the addy I will only find it again by accident. It was very detailed but the thing that stood out when I skimmed through it (before saving it for later inspection!) was the number of times it was said the figures were specultive and not to be relied upon.

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