The Polish tank losses during the Oper. Totalize Aug 1944?

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Juha
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The Polish tank losses during the Oper. Totalize Aug 1944?

Post by Juha » 30 Aug 2018 11:09

I have a question on the operational report on 13 Aug 1944 by the CO 1st Polish Arm Div Maczek. It is reprinted as Maczek, Stainslaw, "The 1st Polish Armoured Division in Normandy" in the Canadian Military History: Vol. 15 (2006) Iss. 2 pp. 51-70. This gives the Polish tank losses during the Oper. Totalize as 66. But I have printed the same report some 10 - 20 years ago from net somewhere, I have no recollection from where. They seem to be identical but this printed version gives the Polish tank losses during the Oper. Totalize as 88. So either 66 has became 88 or other way around during the process. Which number is the correct one?

TIA
Juha

Michael Kenny
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Re: The Polish tank losses during the Oper. Totalize Aug 1944?

Post by Michael Kenny » 30 Aug 2018 12:47

Brian Reid gives a total of 57 in his book No Holding back (page 290) which is not sourced from this report. This will be the total of all tanks needing longer than 24 hours to repair as well as any total losses. It is not the number of total losses.
This is an important point because many wrongly assume an Allied Unit that strikes (say) 20 tanks means they had 20 tanks destroyed. 'Z' losses are given as 24 of the 57.
Could you post a scan of your copy so we can see its layout etc.

Juha
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Re: The Polish tank losses during the Oper. Totalize Aug 1944?

Post by Juha » 30 Aug 2018 21:52

Hello Michael
thanks a lot for your fast reply!
I will post a scan, but that will take a while. My multi-task machine or whatever it is in English suffered a sudden death last week and I must first decide am I buying a new multi-task machine or separate scanner and printer. If I choose the first option, I must decide whether I will acquire a laser or ink machine.

PS. What is Reid's source of the Polish tank losses?

Michael Kenny
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Re: The Polish tank losses during the Oper. Totalize Aug 1944?

Post by Michael Kenny » 01 Sep 2018 13:43

Juha wrote:
30 Aug 2018 21:52


PS. What is Reid's source of the Polish tank losses?
He does not give a specific link to the description of 24 of the 57 casualties as being 'Z casualties'. There is a citation '18' at the end of a following line (in the same sentence) that defines what a Z loss is (requiring 'extensive repair or replacement requiring evacuation') which could be mistaken for a reference for the number of Z losses but it is a technical Manual which gives a definition of Military Term and so must just be a reference for what constitutes a Z casualty.
A 'Z' casualty is a tank the Unit strikes from its roll at the end of a day and thus what many assume to be a total loss. Thus we often see the likes of Reynolds using those last light numbers to 'confirm' German kill claims. They note 15 tanks are stricken from Allied unit Y and thus wrongly claim it confirms German Unit X did indeed totally destroy 15 tanks that day. This totally ignores the definition of a Z loss-'requiring extensive repair or replacement requiring evacuation'. This means a Commonwealth Z loss is what a German Unit would define as 'long term repair and total losses. This distinction is lost on many and to be honest not what they want to hear.

Juha
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Re: The Polish tank losses during the Oper. Totalize Aug 1944?

Post by Juha » 01 Sep 2018 20:27

Again thanks a lot for the answer!
Again a new question, The Guards AD REME commander reported after Oper Goodwood the loss catecories
Zw (destroyed and burnt) and
Z damaged, major repairs needed in 3rd echelon workshops
etc

Was that Zw category in general use, one tends to think so because Guards units tended to go by books more often than lesser mortals? If so when it was taken in use?

TIA
Juha

Michael Kenny
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Re: The Polish tank losses during the Oper. Totalize Aug 1944?

Post by Michael Kenny » 01 Sep 2018 20:32

Juha wrote:
01 Sep 2018 20:27
Again thanks a lot for the answer!
Again a new question, The Guards AD REME commander reported after Oper Goodwood the loss catecories
Zw (destroyed and burnt) and
Z damaged, major repairs needed in 3rd echelon workshops
etc

Was that Zw category in general use, one tends to think so because Guards units tended to go by books more often than lesser mortals? If so when it was taken in use?


X Casualty = reparable within 24 hours

Y Casualty = Over 24 hours, requires assistance from repair personnel and likely to be repairable by unit fitters and light aid detachments or second line workshops.

Z Casualty = requires extensive repair or replacement involving evacuation.

Zw = Total loss, burnt out.

All Y & Z tanks are stricken from a Unit at last light and handed over to workshops. A Unit did not 'scrap' tanks the workshop did that.


I have seen tanks where just the 'W' is used on the wreck
M4 Wreck ,..,..,.jpg
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Juha
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Re: The Polish tank losses during the Oper. Totalize Aug 1944?

Post by Juha » 01 Sep 2018 20:39

Hello Michael
thanks a lot again!
Juha

Michael Kenny
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Re: The Polish tank losses during the Oper. Totalize Aug 1944?

Post by Michael Kenny » 02 Sep 2018 02:29

Polish 1st Armoured Division August 1944-April 1945

Tank Losses 265 tanks

Sherman ....................172
Cromwell....................51
Stuart........................35
Command Tanks........... 7
Sexton...................... 12

M3 Half Track...............15
Carriers..................... 138
Art guns......................15

Juha
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Re: The Polish tank losses during the Oper. Totalize Aug 1944?

Post by Juha » 02 Oct 2018 16:18

Ok, at last I got a new scanner, still trying to learn use it, pages 1 & 7 of the report, the Polish material losses on the top of p. 7.
Uhm, it seems that I cannot upload pictures from my PC here, what to do?

Juha

Michael Kenny
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Re: The Polish tank losses during the Oper. Totalize Aug 1944?

Post by Michael Kenny » 02 Oct 2018 16:24

Juha wrote:
02 Oct 2018 16:18
Ok, at last I got a new scanner, still trying to learn use it, pages 1 & 7 of the report, the Polish material losses on the top of p. 7.
Uhm, it seems that I cannot upload pictures from my PC here, what to do?

Juha
The only reason I know for the rejection of images is because they are not Jpg or are too big. A jpg at 1200 longest side should be no problem. You can even drag and drop them straight into the post

Juha
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Re: The Polish tank losses during the Oper. Totalize Aug 1944?

Post by Juha » 03 Oct 2018 22:36

The photos are jpegs and only c. 500 kt size each but I cannot figure to a way to upload them here from my hard disk, the photo button here asked a URL.

Juha

Michael Kenny
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Re: The Polish tank losses during the Oper. Totalize Aug 1944?

Post by Michael Kenny » 03 Oct 2018 22:39

Why cant you drag and drop them straight into the post?

Juha
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Re: The Polish tank losses during the Oper. Totalize Aug 1944?

Post by Juha » 03 Oct 2018 23:35

I tried earlier copy and attach commands and that didn't work, I never thought dragging but it seemed that worked neither but here they are, page 3 came as an extra. The order is reversed: page 7, 3 and 1

Juha
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Michael Kenny
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Re: The Polish tank losses during the Oper. Totalize Aug 1944?

Post by Michael Kenny » 04 Oct 2018 02:18

As it isn't in Polish it is a translation/copy. Was it sourced?

Juha
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Re: The Polish tank losses during the Oper. Totalize Aug 1944?

Post by Juha » 04 Oct 2018 09:02

Not IIRC, as I wrote I cannot remember even the site from which I printed it or the time, other than it was long ago.

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