Sherman III

Discussions on WW2 in Western Europe & the Atlantic.
Post Reply
Brady
Member
Posts: 1521
Joined: 10 Jul 2008, 23:02
Location: Oregon

Sherman III

#1

Post by Brady » 01 Sep 2018, 17:07

I have some sources that state that the Sherman III was the Most common Sherman in British service and some that say the Sherman V was the most common type, anyone have a clue hear for me ?

Ospery:

Image

Other: Sherman Tanks of the British 8th army and Royal Marines
Image
Image

Tank Encyclopedia:
Image

Juha
Member
Posts: 280
Joined: 29 Sep 2005, 11:38
Location: Finland

Re: Sherman III

#2

Post by Juha » 01 Sep 2018, 21:01

Difficult to believe that Sherman III was the most common type used By British/CW because the SU got some 4.000 M4A2 versions (diesel powered as the Soviet main tanks were) and M4A4 production was something like 7.500 of which almost all went to the British/CW.


Brady
Member
Posts: 1521
Joined: 10 Jul 2008, 23:02
Location: Oregon

Re: Sherman III

#3

Post by Brady » 01 Sep 2018, 23:45

Well, oddly the Sherman III is referenced as being built until May of 44, and the Sherman V until Nov. 43, I keep thinking that the Numbers might in one way or the other including Sherman's being issued to CW troops and When referring the British service it is just referencing that and Not British and CW service.

Alanmccoubrey
Member
Posts: 3370
Joined: 19 Sep 2008, 14:44

Re: Sherman III

#4

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 03 Sep 2018, 20:45

Sounds like a load of rubbish to me. Several years ago peter Brown published the 21 Army group RAC returns for 1944/45 in Tracklink Magazine. The June 1944 return for the British units of 21 AG show that there were 316 Sherman III compared to 762 Sherman V, 180 Sherman V DD and 316 Sherman VC Fireflies.
Alan

Richard Anderson
Member
Posts: 6350
Joined: 01 Jan 2016, 22:21
Location: Bremerton, Washington

Re: Sherman III

#5

Post by Richard Anderson » 04 Sep 2018, 03:24

The bare facts are fairly simple, the U.S. shipped 15,256 Medium Tanks M4 (75mm), 1,335 (76mm), and 593 (105mm) to the British, and an additional 4 M4A1 (75mm) to Canada. After that it gets complicated.

The second and sixth Lima Locomotive Works M4A1 went to London in April, followed by 264 M4A1 and 90 M4A2 to the Middle East in September. They also ordered 329 M4A4 in September 1942.

For the 75mm:
A total of 2,096 M4 were sent.
In addition to the 266 M4A1 sent as described above, another 676 were sent for a total of 942.
In addition to the 90 M4A2, another 4,951 were sent for a total of 5,041
Only 7 M4A3 were ever sent.
The Lend-Leased M4A4 are probably best documented. In addition to the 329 ordered in September, another 425 were ordered in 1942, 4,824 in 1943, and 1,587 in 1944. Another two were delivered at an unknown date for a total of 7,167.
That totals 15,253, which is short 3 the number reported by the Lend-Lease Commission. I suspect the difference are in the early M4A1 shipped from Lima.

For the 76mm:
1,330 were M4A1
5 were M4A2

For the 105mm:
All 593 were M4
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell

Brady
Member
Posts: 1521
Joined: 10 Jul 2008, 23:02
Location: Oregon

Re: Sherman III

#6

Post by Brady » 04 Sep 2018, 04:43

I cant help but wonder why osprey is so off on that ?

Richard Anderson
Member
Posts: 6350
Joined: 01 Jan 2016, 22:21
Location: Bremerton, Washington

Re: Sherman III

#7

Post by Richard Anderson » 04 Sep 2018, 05:27

Brady wrote:
04 Sep 2018, 04:43
I cant help but wonder why osprey is so off on that ?
Well, those totals I gave are for number shipped under Lend-Lease auspices, so the totals in Osprey may have been received. Lend-Lease records also do not include theater transfers and reverse Lend-Lease, so for example, the 351 M4A2 and M4A4 sent to 12th Army Group from British stocks in January 1945 are not "subtracted" from the total. Neither are the 388 Medium Tanks M4 (of various series) transferred to the British c. 1 June 1944 from ETOUSA theater stocks likely "added", even though in theory they were to fulfill a earlier Lend-Lease obligation (the termination of the M4A4 production really bollixed things up, since it was very popular with the British troops.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell

Richard Anderson
Member
Posts: 6350
Joined: 01 Jan 2016, 22:21
Location: Bremerton, Washington

Re: Sherman III

#8

Post by Richard Anderson » 04 Sep 2018, 05:55

Brady wrote:
01 Sep 2018, 23:45
Well, oddly the Sherman III is referenced as being built until May of 44, and the Sherman V until Nov. 43, I keep thinking that the Numbers might in one way or the other including Sherman's being issued to CW troops and When referring the British service it is just referencing that and Not British and CW service.
Sherman V (M4A4 75mm Dry) production ended in September 1943, not November 1943. However, a large number retained in the U.S. as "school" tanks were later refurbished and sent to the UK to meet its urgent requirements. Detroit Tank Arsenal began the M4A4 remanufacture program in December 1943 and finished it in early October 1944 with 1,610 completed.

Sherman III (M4A2 75mm Dry) production ended in May 1944, but then continued as the Sherman IIIA and AY (M4A2 76mm Wet and Wet HVSS). However, the later was not shipped as Lend-Lease. However, almost all the 75mm-armed Shermans sent to the USSR in 1944 were late production M4A2 75mm Dry. 2,005 of those were sent along with two M4A4, which is basically all M4A2 manufactured from about September 1943 on as well as most of the remanufactured M4A2 (535 from April-November 1944), although it is likely the British got some as well.

All Lend-Lease shipments to Britain include those to Commonwealth and Colonial end users, except for the four M4A1 to Canada. Indian, South African, and Canadian armored units were supplied through British Lend-Lease...although some may have been theater shipments as well.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell

Alanmccoubrey
Member
Posts: 3370
Joined: 19 Sep 2008, 14:44

Re: Sherman III

#9

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 04 Sep 2018, 10:29

Why does it matter when the production finished ? You have the numbers actually with British Units in Normandy. And Osprey got it wrong because that is what Osprey does.
Alan

Brady
Member
Posts: 1521
Joined: 10 Jul 2008, 23:02
Location: Oregon

Re: Sherman III

#10

Post by Brady » 04 Sep 2018, 15:31

Thank you for taking the time, it’s all really very fascinating

Post Reply

Return to “WW2 in Western Europe & the Atlantic”