Motorization of Allied troop in May 1940

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MarkN
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Re: Motorization of Allied troop in May 1940

Post by MarkN » 23 Sep 2018 21:43

Knouterer wrote:
23 Sep 2018 18:08
MarkN wrote:
19 Sep 2018 12:25
Nothing in your words disagrees with what I wrote. If you want to disagree, at least have the sense to argue against the point rather than wibble on with text that agrees. :lol:
You wrote: "the two motor divisions with the BEF in France in 1940 were tasked and roled no differently than the 'standard' infantry divisions alongside whom they served "

I just pointed out that there were no motor divisions with the BEF in France.
You described how the two divisions of the BEF with 'motor' in their name had been stripped of certain assets. That stripping left them almost identical to the 'infantry' divisions alongside whom they operated. You were adding more evidence that my comment was accurate. You offered no evidence to support you claim that what I wrote was "incorrect".

And you have still yet to provide evidence that they performed tasks and roles in France/Belgium that were not doctrinally assigned to them - whether assets had been stripped or not. It's just your speculation that they were doing something not assigned to them doctrinally.

MarkNote: It is noted that the infantry element of three TA divisions initially sent to continue training were also tasked with manual labour duties which would not be included in their doctrinal template. However, when asked to perform operational tasks, they were tasked with standard infantry tasks; the 23rd Motor Division being tasked no differently to the 12th Infantry Division despite both lacking equipment and such like to the same degree.

gracie4241
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Re: Motorization of Allied troop in May 1940

Post by gracie4241 » 11 Mar 2019 16:56

The 35 "first wave" german infantry divisions-not considered motorized- did have an OOB of some 1000 vehicles including 5-600 trucks.That's not "un-motorized" either, totaling there some 35,000 vehicles

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Sheldrake
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Re: Motorization of Allied troop in May 1940

Post by Sheldrake » 11 Mar 2019 21:16

gracie4241 wrote:
11 Mar 2019 16:56
The 35 "first wave" german infantry divisions-not considered motorized- did have an OOB of some 1000 vehicles including 5-600 trucks.That's not "un-motorized" either, totaling there some 35,000 vehicles
The 1939 German infantry division may have had some 1,000 motor vehicles, but it also had around 1,100 horse drawn vehicles and 5,400 horses. From a mobility and logistic support point of view it was non mechanised. (Though the Diviison copuld forma fast battlegroup of the Recce and anti tank battalions which were mainly motorised. Whether this represented the best use of Germany's limited motor vehicle fleet is a moot point. It has been argued that it would have been better to have fully motorised the Corps artillery than the anti tank battlaions of each infantry division.

Knouterer
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Re: Motorization of Allied troop in May 1940

Post by Knouterer » 14 Mar 2019 09:59

At full strength, these first wave divisions consisted of 17,734 officers and men, organized in three infantry regiments, an artillery regiment, a reconnaissance battalion, an antitank battalion, an engineer battalion, a signals battalion, and various other supporting services such as a bakery company. Equipment included 12 150 mm medium howitzers, 36 105 mm howitzers, 6 heavy (150 mm) and 20 light (75 mm) infantry guns, 75 37 mm antitank guns, 12 20 mm AA guns, and three light armoured cars. Motor transport consisted of 615 trucks and tractors, 394 cars and 527 motorcycles (201 with sidecar). Many vehicles were requisitioned civilian models that did not stand up well to the rigours of campaigning. The division did rely heavily on horses for mobility and could not have moved at all without them; there were no fewer than 4,842, of which 2,208 in the artillery regiment.

In the infantry regiments, the only fully motorized sub-unit was the 14th (anti-tank) company and even that applied only in the early phase of the war, in divisions raised later (from late 1940) the regimental AT guns were (wholly or partially) horse-drawn. The 13th (infantry gun) company had no fewer than 133 horses. The three heavy weapons companies (mortars and machine guns) had 58 each.

In fact about a third of the motor vehicles were in the supporting services while the fighting elements of the division used relatively more horses.
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