Day-to-day timeline Market Garden

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PatrickBateman
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Day-to-day timeline Market Garden

Post by PatrickBateman » 12 Sep 2018 16:10

Hi,

I am looking for a type of timeline about Operation Market Garden, a day-to-day report. Wikipedia is a good start but I need one with more depth and background information, wikpedia skips a lot of events.

I don't need necessarily the German side, Allies only is ok!

Alanmccoubrey
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Re: Day-to-day timeline Market Garden

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 12 Sep 2018 19:40

Wikipedia is never a good start for anything historical, you don't know who wrote it . Any of the published books on the subject would be better, "It never snows in September" would be a great place t start to name but one.
Alan

Tom from Cornwall
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Re: Day-to-day timeline Market Garden

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 12 Sep 2018 21:01

Patrick,

What exactly are you looking for?
The number of planes flying in?
What each division/brigade/battalion/company/squadron were doing?
What orders were given out?

There are thousands of books out there - my advice would be to get reading and make up your own timeline. Oh, and don’t believe anything you read! 😄

Regards

Tom

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Sheldrake
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Re: Day-to-day timeline Market Garden

Post by Sheldrake » 12 Sep 2018 21:08

This is a laudable aim and when you do please publish the results.

There are problems with Op Market Garden. It was an Allied operation mounted by two armies supported by two different air forces with significant British and US components. If you want to assemble your timeline from primary sources you have quite a bit of ground to cover. The secondary sources have national or institutional bias, exacerbated by the desire not to be tainted by the failure of the operation.

There is a narrative and timeline in pp37-71 of the 21 Army Group report on the CASRLL digital Library available online here http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/sing ... 2899/rec/3

There is a LOT more detail in the draft histories prepared by the Historical Branch under CAB 44/252 CAB44/253 and CAB44/254 These classified histories include the best estimate by the British of what happened - regardless of how eventually the story might be written for public consumption,.
You will need to visit the National Archive at Kew, London to read them, but you can take photographs.

I would be interested to see how the timelines compare in official US and British narratives and the extent that they agree with the air force version of events.

Is there any particular reason why you are not interested in the German accounts?

PatrickBateman
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Re: Day-to-day timeline Market Garden

Post by PatrickBateman » 13 Sep 2018 07:47

Alanmccoubrey wrote:
12 Sep 2018 19:40
Wikipedia is never a good start for anything historical, you don't know who wrote it . Any of the published books on the subject would be better, "It never snows in September" would be a great place t start to name but one.
I have heard the name of the book many times, maybe it is time to buy and read it. I don't wanna sound greedy, but I hope'd there was already some kind of time line of OP MG so I guess I have to write down all the main events myself.
Tom from Cornwall wrote:
12 Sep 2018 21:01
What exactly are you looking for?
The number of planes flying in?
What each division/brigade/battalion/company/squadron were doing?
What orders were given out?

There are thousands of books out there - my advice would be to get reading and make up your own timeline. Oh, and don’t believe anything you read! 😄
No, not the numbers of planes, tanks, equipment etc, more when which unit achieved it's objective. For example:
Day 1 - Sept 17:
101st Airborne lands near Eindhoven, company Z captured bridge A
82nd Airborne lands near Grave - unit A captured Grave bridge
1st Airborne lands at Oosterbeek and Arnhem, unit C moves into Oosterbeek, Unit D moves into Arnhem and captured one side of the bridge

Day 2 - Sept 18
German units from 10th SS Panzer Division arrives at Arnhem from the (direction), failed to recapture the bridge blablabla etc.

This aren't ofcourse the real facts but this is what I want to create, a time line like that, almost the same idea as wikipedia has but with more depth of most the units, battles etc.
Sheldrake wrote:
12 Sep 2018 21:08
This is a laudable aim and when you do please publish the results.

There are problems with Op Market Garden. It was an Allied operation mounted by two armies supported by two different air forces with significant British and US components. If you want to assemble your timeline from primary sources you have quite a bit of ground to cover. The secondary sources have national or institutional bias, exacerbated by the desire not to be tainted by the failure of the operation.

There is a narrative and timeline in pp37-71 of the 21 Army Group report on the CASRLL digital Library available online here http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/sing ... 2899/rec/3

There is a LOT more detail in the draft histories prepared by the Historical Branch under CAB 44/252 CAB44/253 and CAB44/254 These classified histories include the best estimate by the British of what happened - regardless of how eventually the story might be written for public consumption,.
You will need to visit the National Archive at Kew, London to read them, but you can take photographs.

I would be interested to see how the timelines compare in official US and British narratives and the extent that they agree with the air force version of events.

Is there any particular reason why you are not interested in the German accounts?
Let it be clear, I'm not a professional historian who wants to publish anything about this operation, this time-line is just for myself because I'm really interested in this operation, mainly because it was fought on the soil of my country, and the fact it was the largest battle fought here during World War 2 (and the German invasion of 1940 ofcourse).

And because there is probably not such time-line I think it is interesting to have one, withing seconds you can see what was happening on which day during the OP.

Is there any particular reason why you are not interested in the German accounts?
Creating the Allied side is already hard enough I think, but I want to mix them together in a way that I can see that, for example, German unit A attacked the British at Arnhem on day 2 Sept 18 from the south.

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Sheldrake
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Re: Day-to-day timeline Market Garden

Post by Sheldrake » 13 Sep 2018 09:33

PatrickBateman wrote:
13 Sep 2018 07:47
Sheldrake wrote:
12 Sep 2018 21:08
This is a laudable aim and when you do please publish the results.

There are problems with Op Market Garden. It was an Allied operation mounted by two armies supported by two different air forces with significant British and US components. If you want to assemble your timeline from primary sources you have quite a bit of ground to cover. The secondary sources have national or institutional bias, exacerbated by the desire not to be tainted by the failure of the operation.

There is a narrative and timeline in pp37-71 of the 21 Army Group report on the CASRLL digital Library available online here http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/sing ... 2899/rec/3

There is a LOT more detail in the draft histories prepared by the Historical Branch under CAB 44/252 CAB44/253 and CAB44/254 These classified histories include the best estimate by the British of what happened - regardless of how eventually the story might be written for public consumption,.
You will need to visit the National Archive at Kew, London to read them, but you can take photographs.

I would be interested to see how the timelines compare in official US and British narratives and the extent that they agree with the air force version of events.

Is there any particular reason why you are not interested in the German accounts?
Let it be clear, I'm not a professional historian who wants to publish anything about this operation, this time-line is just for myself because I'm really interested in this operation, mainly because it was fought on the soil of my country, and the fact it was the largest battle fought here during World War 2 (and the German invasion of 1940 ofcourse).

And because there is probably not such time-line I think it is interesting to have one, withing seconds you can see what was happening on which day during the OP.

Is there any particular reason why you are not interested in the German accounts?
Creating the Allied side is already hard enough I think, but I want to mix them together in a way that I can see that, for example, German unit A attacked the British at Arnhem on day 2 Sept 18 from the south.
You may not be a professional historian, but you will soon find yourself facing every military historian faces. There are no "facts" only interpretations of sources of data that can be inconsistent, subject to bias and conflict. Looking at the other side of the hill helps. Take the example of "German unit A attacked the British at Arnhem on day 2 Sept 18 from the south." If you only look at Allied reports you cannot always distinguish between an attack, a feint or demonstration or even a friendly fire incident!

I suspect that the 21 Army Group Report will provide the basic timeline.
You might want a

PatrickBateman
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Re: Day-to-day timeline Market Garden

Post by PatrickBateman » 14 Sep 2018 10:55

Sheldrake wrote:
12 Sep 2018 21:08

You may not be a professional historian, but you will soon find yourself facing every military historian faces. There are no "facts" only interpretations of sources of data that can be inconsistent, subject to bias and conflict. Looking at the other side of the hill helps. Take the example of "German unit A attacked the British at Arnhem on day 2 Sept 18 from the south." If you only look at Allied reports you cannot always distinguish between an attack, a feint or demonstration or even a friendly fire incident!

I suspect that the 21 Army Group Report will provide the basic timeline.
You might want a
Thanks for the 21 Army Group report, will look into it very soon, looked promising.

I started my time-line, it's still pretty basic and misses many events, but it could give you in seconds a good view of the OP, let me know what you think, missing any major events, and what is wrong so far. Ignore my bad English. :D

Day 1 - September 17
82nd Airborne Division lands near Grave
101st Airborne Division lands near Veghel and Eindhoven
1st Airborne Division lands near Wolfheze and Arnhem
XXX Corps advance into the Netherlands, ambushed by Germans, already behind schedule

101st Airborne Division captured bridge at Veghel
82nd Airborne Division captured bridge at Grave
Only the British 2nd Parachute Battalion reach Arnhem and capture northern end of the bridge
Other units of the 1st Airborne Division remained at Oosterbeek(?)
German commander of Arnhem's garrison, Major-General Friedrich Kussin, killed and scalped

Day 2 - September 18
101st Airborne Division liberated Eindhoven
2nd Battalion in Arnhem repulsed German attack of the 9th SS Panzer Division, killing commanding officer Viktor Gräbner
1st and 3rd Parachute Battalions advanced into Arnhem, failed to reach 2nd Battalion at the bridge
2nd Battalion surrended by elements of the 9th SS Panzer Division
82nd Airborne Division engaged in heavy fighting in and around Nijmegen, unable to capture the bridge over the Waal
XXX Corps advance through Eindhoven, building bailey bridge at Son

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Sheldrake
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Re: Day-to-day timeline Market Garden

Post by Sheldrake » 14 Sep 2018 11:27

First thoughts are:-

A good idea. I have to write one myself when visiting battlefields.

You may need some finer graduations than by day. Hours matter

PatrickBateman
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Re: Day-to-day timeline Market Garden

Post by PatrickBateman » 14 Sep 2018 14:49

Yes, you are right, hours are important, but it will be hard to find the exact hour of every event.

I updated the time-line a little bit, let me know if I missed something important or made any errors so far. I think the battle of Arnhem is the hardest to summarise, there are so many units involved and fought on multiple locations (Arnhem, Oosterbeek, Wolfheze etc.)

Day 1 - September 17
82nd Airborne Division lands near Grave
101st Airborne Division lands near Veghel and Eindhoven
1st Airborne Division lands near Wolfheze and Arnhem
XXX Corps advance into the Netherlands, ambushed by Germans, already behind schedule

101st Airborne Division captured bridge at Veghel
Son bridge blown up as troops of the 506th PIR approached the bridge
82nd Airborne Division captured bridge at Grave
Only the British 2nd Parachute Battalion reach Arnhem and capture northern end of the bridge
Other units of the 1st Airborne Division remained at Oosterbeek(?)
German commander of Arnhem's garrison, Major-General Friedrich Kussin, killed and scalped

Day 2 - September 18
101st Airborne Division liberated Eindhoven

2nd Battalion in Arnhem repulsed German attack of the 9th SS Panzer Division, killing commanding officer Viktor Gräbner
1st and 3rd Parachute Battalions advanced into Arnhem, failed to reach 2nd Battalion at the bridge
2nd Battalion surrended by elements of the 9th SS Panzer Division

82nd Airborne Division engaged in heavy fighting in and around Nijmegen, unable to capture the bridge over the Waal
Dutch resistance fighter Jan van Hoof sabotaged German explosives placed on the Waal Brug, Nijmegen
German reinforcements arrive in Nijmegen, 1. Kompagnie SS-Panzer-Pionier-Abteilung 10 and 2. Bataillon SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 19, elements of the 9th and 10th SS Divisions

XXX Corps advance through Eindhoven, building bailey bridge at Son

Day 3 - September 19
Bailey bridge at Son finished, first vehicles of the XXX Corps cross the Wilhelmina Canal and advance towards Veghel
15/19 Hussars and 502nd PIR secure the town of Best, outside Eindhoven
German Luftwaffe bombards Eindhoven at night, 230 civilians killed

XXX Corps crosses Grave bridge, Grenadier Guards linked-up with the 504th PIR, 82nd Airborne, at Nijmegen
Elements of the Guards Armoured Division and 505th PIR advance into Nijmegen towards the Waal bridge but are halted around Keizer Lodewijkplein, heavy fighting erupts

The 1st, 3rd, 11th Parachute Battalion, 2nd South Staffordshires failed to break through to Frost's position at the bridge, Arnhem, and fell back into Oosterbeek
German Sturmgeschützbrigade 280 arrived in Arnhem, engaged in heavy fighting in the British 2nd Battalion sector together with elements of the 9th SS Panzer Division. (If I'm correct, there are many photographs of these German units during street fighting in Arnhem on the 19th of Sept)
2nd Battalion and attached units held most of their positions the rest of the day at the bridge

PatrickBateman
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Re: Day-to-day timeline Market Garden

Post by PatrickBateman » 15 Sep 2018 18:09

Small update. Again, please let me know if I missed something important or made any errors (any other help or advice is welcome)

Day 1 - September 17

82nd Airborne Division lands near Grave
101st Airborne Division lands near Veghel and Eindhoven
1st Airborne Division lands near Wolfheze and Arnhem
XXX Corps advance into the Netherlands, ambushed by Germans, already behind schedule

101st Airborne Division captured bridge at Veghel
Son bridge blown up as troops of the 506th PIR approached the bridge
82nd Airborne Division captured bridge at Grave
Only the British 2nd Parachute Battalion reach Arnhem and capture northern end of the bridge
Other units of the 1st Airborne Division remained at Oosterbeek(?)
German commander of Arnhem's garrison, Major-General Friedrich Kussin, killed and scalped

Day 2 - September 18

101st Airborne Division liberated Eindhoven

Dutch unit SS-Wachbataillon Nordwest arrived yesterday and were put into action against 7th Battalion Kings Own Scottish Borderers. Wachbataillon were no match for the way more professional British soldiers. Many refused to fight the Western Allies and flee
2nd Battalion in Arnhem repulsed German attack of the 9th SS Panzer Division, killing commanding officer Viktor Gräbner
1st and 3rd Parachute Battalions advanced into Arnhem, failed to reach 2nd Battalion at the bridge
2nd Battalion surrended by elements of the 9th SS Panzer Division

82nd Airborne Division engaged in heavy fighting in and around Nijmegen, unable to capture the bridge over the Waal
Dutch resistance fighter Jan van Hoof sabotaged German explosives placed on the Waal Brug, Nijmegen
German reinforcements arrive in Nijmegen, 1. Kompagnie SS-Panzer-Pionier-Abteilung 10 and 2. Bataillon SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 19, elements of the 9th and 10th SS Divisions

XXX Corps advance through Eindhoven, building bailey bridge at Son

Day 3 - September 19

Bailey bridge at Son finished, first vehicles of the XXX Corps cross the Wilhelmina Canal and advance towards Veghel
15/19 Hussars and 502nd PIR secure the town of Best, outside Eindhoven
German Luftwaffe bombards Eindhoven at night, 230 civilians killed

XXX Corps crosses Grave bridge, Grenadier Guards linked-up with the 504th PIR, 82nd Airborne, at Nijmegen
Elements of the Guards Armoured Division and 505th PIR advance into Nijmegen towards the Waal bridge but are halted around Keizer Lodewijkplein, heavy fighting erupts

The 1st, 3rd, 11th Parachute Battalion, 2nd South Staffordshires failed to break through to Frost's position at the bridge, Arnhem, and fell back into Oosterbeek
German Sturmgeschützbrigade 280 arrived in Arnhem, engaged in heavy fighting in the British 2nd Battalion sector together with elements of the 9th SS Panzer Division.
2nd Battalion and attached units held most of their positions the rest of the day at the bridge


Day 4 - September 20

Situation of 2nd Parachute Battalion at the bridge is critical. Low on food, water and medical supplies. A two-hour truce was arranged to evacuate the wounded, including commander Lt.-Col Frost

Elements of the Guards Armoured and 82nd Airborne Division begin the final push towards the Waal Bridge, fighting in Nijmegen's city centry from street by street, with success
Troops of 3rd Battalion, 504th PIR, 82nd, commanded by Major Cook, cross the Waal river to capture Nijmegen bridge from both sides.
The 504th, 505th PIR, 82nd Airborne, and Irish Guards tanks secured the Nijmegen bridge, 3 days behind schedule

Day 5 – September 21

Some 100 remaining British paratroopers who kept on fighting had been taken prisoner. Battle in Arnhem is over
The remnants of the British 1st Airborne formed a defensive perimeter around Oosterbeek

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