Statistical Study of German PoWs in Normandy

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Mori
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Statistical Study of German PoWs in Normandy

#1

Post by Mori » 06 Jun 2019, 21:51

Hello to all,

I'm looking for a statistical study of German PoWs made during the Normandy campaign. I have read that such a study was made of 12,000 of the 29,000 PoWs from June 1944. The study was based on their Soldbuch, not on interviews.

I don't know more, except that a comparable study may have been performed in Tunisia after May 1943.

Has anyone heard of it? What would be the specific source?

Thanks,

Mori

Richard Anderson
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Re: Statistical Study of German PoWs in Normandy

#2

Post by Richard Anderson » 07 Jun 2019, 03:14

Mori wrote:
06 Jun 2019, 21:51
Hello to all,

I'm looking for a statistical study of German PoWs made during the Normandy campaign. I have read that such a study was made of 12,000 of the 29,000 PoWs from June 1944. The study was based on their Soldbuch, not on interviews.

I don't know more, except that a comparable study may have been performed in Tunisia after May 1943.

Has anyone heard of it? What would be the specific source?

Thanks,

Mori
Not that I have ever seen, I have gone through quite a few of the ETOUSA/USFET/12th AG files that would have had such a report. I do know that U.S. Fifth Army in Italy recorded daily PW intakes by number and unit from September 1943-June 1944...then stopped. I don't know if a later set of that report to the end of the war was made and filed somewhere else, but its possible.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell


Mori
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Re: Statistical Study of German PoWs in Normandy

#3

Post by Mori » 07 Jun 2019, 09:06

This source is mentioned in print in an article on the types of sources historian used. The article's author is a scholar who is both of a serious type and extremely reluctant to share his sources.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Statistical Study of German PoWs in Normandy

#4

Post by Sid Guttridge » 07 Jun 2019, 11:27

Hi Mori,

Your last post tells us nothing.

Do you have the actual source so that others can consult it?

Cheers,

Sid.

Mori
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Re: Statistical Study of German PoWs in Normandy

#5

Post by Mori » 07 Jun 2019, 12:07

Yes. This book, page 197. Hopefully you are fine with the French.
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Richard Anderson
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Re: Statistical Study of German PoWs in Normandy

#6

Post by Richard Anderson » 07 Jun 2019, 16:05

Mori wrote:
07 Jun 2019, 12:07
Yes. This book, page 197. Hopefully you are fine with the French.
Sadly, I'm not sure that qualifies as even a peek-a-boo reference... :D We did spend quite a bit of time going through relevant PW files for the Enemy PW Capture Rate Study. The only high-level "study" I found were the monthly PW count totals by capturing nationality in RG 338 IIRC.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell

Mori
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Re: Statistical Study of German PoWs in Normandy

#7

Post by Mori » 07 Jun 2019, 21:45

The guy it comes from is 100% serious (and 100% reluctant to disclose the source until he publishes something with it, if he ever does). The description is specific enough to tell it isn't made up.

reedwh52
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Re: Statistical Study of German PoWs in Normandy

#8

Post by reedwh52 » 07 Jun 2019, 22:44

"The guy it comes from is 100% serious (and 100% reluctant to disclose the source until he publishes something with it, if he ever does). The description is specific enough to tell it isn't made up."

Quite the contrary-Absent supporting evidence of some kind, all the description says is the writer can develop a lucid sentence.

If there is evidence, than it should be identifiable and be able to stand up to critical scrutiny. Otherwise, it is supposition.

I personally would be happy fo find that such a study existed and it's purpose. Absent further source data, there has been no evidence that it did.

Note that there is one possibility that would not be a POW study-There could have been data gathered from POWs to determine units & organizations (ORBAT data) but that does not appear to be what is so nebulously described

Richard Anderson
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Re: Statistical Study of German PoWs in Normandy

#9

Post by Richard Anderson » 07 Jun 2019, 22:46

Mori wrote:
07 Jun 2019, 21:45
The guy it comes from is 100% serious (and 100% reluctant to disclose the source until he publishes something with it, if he ever does). The description is specific enough to tell it isn't made up.
Oh, I don't believe it is made up, but I've never understood the wholw "secret sources" thing.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell

Simon Trew 1
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Re: Statistical Study of German PoWs in Normandy

#10

Post by Simon Trew 1 » 25 Jun 2019, 12:43

Hello,

The only document I know of that resembles this particular description is PWIS(H)/194 of 17 July 1944. It is entitled 'German Military Man-Power June 1944' and is a demographic study of 12000 of 29700 PWs captured during the first 24 days of the Normandy campaign. It is not especially long or detailed, but it is interesting. PWIS(H)/169 of 16 October 1943 is a study of German manpower captured in North Africa. It can be found attached to the 1944 report for purposes of comparison.

If you want a copy, please contact me. Or you can get somebody at the UK National Archives to source it. It is in WO 208/3622.

Hope this helps,

Simon

Lcr5002
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Re: Statistical Study of German PoWs in Normandy

#11

Post by Lcr5002 » 13 Jun 2020, 16:09

Simon

I would be interested in seeing the study on German prisoners done on July 17 for the preceding month.

Louis

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