D Day through German Eyes: How the Wehrmacht Lost France, by Jonathan Trigg

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Aida1
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Re: D Day through German Eyes: How the Wehrmacht Lost France, by Jonathan Trigg

Post by Aida1 » 17 Aug 2019 20:32

Michael Kenny wrote:
17 Aug 2019 20:10
Aida1 wrote:
17 Aug 2019 19:47


I am not surprised that you would also try to downplay the superior allied firepower.
I do not downplay it.
It did not happen by accident.
The Allies made choices.
They did not choose the German option of many multi-million men armies.
They looked at and rejected the German way of doing things.
Instead they built up smaller more mobile fully motorised Armies backed by a number of specialised arms (like artillery & TAC) specifically tasked with negating with the known German superiority in certain areas.
The Allies by design opted for smaller armies.
Smaller but more deadly armies.
History shows the Allies made the right choices and the Germans made the wrong choices.
An Allied soldier in 1944-45 was a formidable opponent.

British Inf ,,..,, (1).jpg
You are downplaying it and Germany did not have the option of having a small fully motorised army so you are misrepresenting clearly.The small detail of most German divisions being on the eastern front seems to have escaped your notice.Germany could hardly fight the USSR with a small army.Germany only facing the western allies would have meant having smaller ground forces.

Mori
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Re: D Day through German Eyes: How the Wehrmacht Lost France, by Jonathan Trigg

Post by Mori » 17 Aug 2019 20:52

Aida1 wrote:
17 Aug 2019 14:22
It seems to me that you disregard the book because it disturbs your preconceived notion that Total air superiority has no major impact on the other sides operations.
?????

Didn't I write: "2) asking what were the actual consequences of this air superiority [I'm not saying there wasn't any, I'm saying Hargreaves does not attempt at assessing impact]."?

Besides, this Hargreaves shortcoming was just one example. Another is the material / munitions superiority of the Allies: mentioned many times, never put in perspective.

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Re: D Day through German Eyes: How the Wehrmacht Lost France, by Jonathan Trigg

Post by Mori » 17 Aug 2019 20:55

Michael Kenny wrote:
17 Aug 2019 19:36
It never got to the stage where military movements were stopped. Reading British Intelligence In The Second World War I was a bit surprised to see the intercepts about the trains needed to transport II SS Pz Korps to France (well over 100) with other units coming up from the south through Le Mans and Angers/Tours. I had always assumed all traffic was stopped but it seems I (we?) are mistaken.
Trains never stopped rolling until maybe after the crossing of the Rhine. In February 1945, in spite of months of systematic bombing, and in spite of Clarion, Germans still managed to move units from one end of the front to the other. However, it did take longer than it should. What should have taken 2 days took a week or even 10 days.
Last edited by Mori on 17 Aug 2019 21:46, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: D Day through German Eyes: How the Wehrmacht Lost France, by Jonathan Trigg

Post by Mori » 17 Aug 2019 20:57

Aida1 wrote:
17 Aug 2019 19:55
Rommels Lagebeurteilung of 11 June 1944 gives a detailed explanation of what makes German operations difficult or impossible.Mentioned are allied air superiority,enemy naval artillery fire,superior material equipment and the way airborne units we're used(Entscheidung im Westen 1944 D Ose DVA 1982 pp 322-323).
Did Rommel really write this? I thought the AAR from Normandy in Rommel papers were by Bayerlein or others, not by Rommel himself.

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Re: D Day through German Eyes: How the Wehrmacht Lost France, by Jonathan Trigg

Post by Mori » 17 Aug 2019 20:59

Aida1 wrote:
17 Aug 2019 20:27
More than that.Shortening the front to escape the allied naval firepower was proposed by Hausser,Rommel and Geyr Von Schweppenburg on June 30(D Ose pp 327-329).Rundstedt agreed but Hitler forbade it and Rundstedt and Geyr lost their job(D Ose p 158).
[/quote]

Oh! Now the "it was Hitler's fault, us generals knew better" trope.

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Re: D Day through German Eyes: How the Wehrmacht Lost France, by Jonathan Trigg

Post by Michael Kenny » 17 Aug 2019 21:29

Aida1 wrote:
17 Aug 2019 20:27


More than that.Shortening the front to escape the allied naval firepower was proposed by Hausser,Rommel and Geyr Von Schweppenburg on June 30(D Ose pp 327-329).Rundstedt agreed but Hitler forbade it and Rundstedt and Geyr lost their job(D Ose p 158).
Since you like quoting German sources how about some of the Doom & Gloom that infected the German High Command once it dawned on them they could not throw the Allies back into the sea. How about giving us their own opinions on their own shortcomings.
Do you have you have any 'Make peace you fools' moments you could share?

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Re: D Day through German Eyes: How the Wehrmacht Lost France, by Jonathan Trigg

Post by Richard Anderson » 17 Aug 2019 21:30

Mori wrote:
17 Aug 2019 20:52
Besides, this Hargreaves shortcoming was just one example. Another is the material / munitions superiority of the Allies: mentioned many times, never put in perspective.
I think you are being a bit unfair to Richard. It is evident that he was not writing a tactical/operational history and never intended to. He wrote a from the POV of German memoir...and mostly of the Landser, not the genrals. In that sense it is highky impessionistic rather than analytical and I think deliberately so.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

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Re: D Day through German Eyes: How the Wehrmacht Lost France, by Jonathan Trigg

Post by Aida1 » 17 Aug 2019 21:34

Mori wrote:
17 Aug 2019 20:52
Aida1 wrote:
17 Aug 2019 14:22
It seems to me that you disregard the book because it disturbs your preconceived notion that Total air superiority has no major impact on the other sides operations.
?????

Didn't I write: "2) asking what were the actual consequences of this air superiority [I'm not saying there wasn't any, I'm saying Hargreaves does not attempt at assessing impact]."?

Besides, this Hargreaves shortcoming was just one example. Another is the material / munitions superiority of the Allies: mentioned many times, never put in perspective.
His book is not about that.There are more than enough books that adress all that.

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Aida1
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Re: D Day through German Eyes: How the Wehrmacht Lost France, by Jonathan Trigg

Post by Aida1 » 17 Aug 2019 21:35

Richard Anderson wrote:
17 Aug 2019 21:30
Mori wrote:
17 Aug 2019 20:52
Besides, this Hargreaves shortcoming was just one example. Another is the material / munitions superiority of the Allies: mentioned many times, never put in perspective.
I think you are being a bit unfair to Richard. It is evident that he was not writing a tactical/operational history and never intended to. He wrote a from the POV of German memoir...and mostly of the Landser, not the genrals. In that sense it is highky impessionistic rather than analytical and I think deliberately so.
Exactly.So the reproach is clearly unfounded.

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Re: D Day through German Eyes: How the Wehrmacht Lost France, by Jonathan Trigg

Post by Aida1 » 17 Aug 2019 21:41

Mori wrote:
17 Aug 2019 20:59
Aida1 wrote:
17 Aug 2019 20:27
More than that.Shortening the front to escape the allied naval firepower was proposed by Hausser,Rommel and Geyr Von Schweppenburg on June 30(D Ose pp 327-329).Rundstedt agreed but Hitler forbade it and Rundstedt and Geyr lost their job(D Ose p 158).
Oh! Now the "it was Hitler's fault, us generals knew better" trope.
[/quote]

So you say that that is all fiction.These Lagebeurteilungen of June 30 do exist you know.They are a matter of record.I read them in the book i quoted..You should try to do some reading.

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Re: D Day through German Eyes: How the Wehrmacht Lost France, by Jonathan Trigg

Post by Michael Kenny » 17 Aug 2019 21:42

Aida1 wrote:
17 Aug 2019 20:32

Germany could hardly fight the USSR with a small army.
To invade Russia was a freely made choice for Germany. It was not forced upon her. Just like the Allies chose not to go down the horse -drawn Divisions dead-end.
The Allies could have had twice as many Divisions but less potent and mobile ones. They decided that would be the wrong choice for them. Allied Divisions were designed to crush the life out of any German opponent. It was not a default response to an Allied inability to tackle a German Army head-on but rather the Allied way of meeting (and crushing) any enemy head-on.

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Re: D Day through German Eyes: How the Wehrmacht Lost France, by Jonathan Trigg

Post by Aida1 » 17 Aug 2019 21:44

Michael Kenny wrote:
17 Aug 2019 21:29
Aida1 wrote:
17 Aug 2019 20:27


More than that.Shortening the front to escape the allied naval firepower was proposed by Hausser,Rommel and Geyr Von Schweppenburg on June 30(D Ose pp 327-329).Rundstedt agreed but Hitler forbade it and Rundstedt and Geyr lost their job(D Ose p 158).
Since you like quoting German sources how about some of the Doom & Gloom that infected the German High Command once it dawned on them they could not throw the Allies back into the sea. How about giving us their own opinions on their own shortcomings.
Do you have you have any 'Make peace you fools' moments you could share?
You know very well that some did and what happened to them.Rundstedt was the happy one who only lost his job.Kluge and Rommel ended up dead.

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Re: D Day through German Eyes: How the Wehrmacht Lost France, by Jonathan Trigg

Post by Aida1 » 17 Aug 2019 21:48

Michael Kenny wrote:
17 Aug 2019 21:42
Aida1 wrote:
17 Aug 2019 20:32

Germany could hardly fight the USSR with a small army.
To invade Russia was a freely made choice for Germany. It was not forced upon her. Just like the Allies chose not to go down the horse -drawn Divisions dead-end.
The Allies could have had twice as many Divisions but less potent and mobile ones. They decided that would be the wrong choice for them. Allied Divisions were designed to crush the life out of any German opponent. It was not a default response to an Allied inability to tackle a German Army head-on but rather the Allied way of meeting (and crushing) any enemy head-on.
Hitler decided to attack the USSR and so Germany needed a big ground army.It could not have a small one and certainly not a fully motorised one.The resources were not there for that.So making out that the Germanswere too dumb to have a small army is a sign of bias,nothing more.

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Re: D Day through German Eyes: How the Wehrmacht Lost France, by Jonathan Trigg

Post by Michael Kenny » 17 Aug 2019 21:52

Aida1 wrote:
17 Aug 2019 21:44
.Kluge and Rommel ended up dead.
Kluge was killed/murdered? Where can I read the details?

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Re: D Day through German Eyes: How the Wehrmacht Lost France, by Jonathan Trigg

Post by Michael Kenny » 17 Aug 2019 21:57

Aida1 wrote:
17 Aug 2019 21:48


So making out that the Germans were too dumb to have a small army is a sign of bias,nothing more.
Best not go down the ' who was the dumbest Army' rabbit-hole. If you take your usual stance (Germany is always the winner in any contest/comparison) then I will have to admit you are right.

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